To be utterly disgusted and depressed that women think its ok to make small penis gags?

[deffonamechange]

Just been reading a thread further down where yes some scumbag bloke had been horrible to someone. Lots of outrage and tell him he has a small dick, tell him he has a micro penis basically mock the size of his genitals.

Can you imagine if a woman upset a bloke and all his mates said tell her she has awful labia, tell her her fanny is horrible, tell her she doesnt look normal down there
Its horrific!!

Do you know how many lovely men with smaller penises get inundated with this? Do you know how many teenage boys worry themselves to death because of comments like these?

Its depressing/sexist/cruel and plain nasty. You should be ashamed of yourselves!

And Lass, your false indignation of the DFOD is a nonsense. It is used all the time on MN, and I used it deliberately and specifically in the context of this thread, as well you know. I didn't use it then claim it was a joke. If you didn't see any humour in it, fine, but you have attempted to liken me to some of MRA in your wilful misunderstanding and misrepresentation of my use of that term. If that's the kind of nonsense you need to peddle to 'win', fair enough, but it holds no water. And to be honest, your arguments are usually better than this

However, the term 'handmaiden' has caused so much upset because, I suppose, it's a short-hand way of saying 'You're not a feminist". But surely if you're arguing a non-feminist view, you would already know you're not a feminist... Hell, some posters even state 'I'm not a feminist' - and then get all upset if they suspect someone's called them a handmaiden. Odd

Not odd as far as I am concerned. I don't say I am feminist. I don't particularly care whether someone says they are or not. I am far more interested in what people actually say or do.

I do not agree with or value the opinion of feminists who are pro the sex industry. There are plenty of women who call themselves feminists and who would label me as a SWERF.

On a personal level I did not change my name and I find it very difficult to see how anyone who calls themselves a feminist but who did so reconciles doing so

Equally I do not particularly value the opinions of feminists who think "handmaiden" is a brilliant , winning argument to any view point they disagree with.

Equally I do not particularly value the opinions of feminists who think "handmaiden" is a brilliant , winning argument to any view point they disagree with

Actually I don't think that at all, but I'm fucked if I'm going to be bullied into not using it, because some people say so. This thread has become all about that word and your attempts to discredit me personally with your charges of misogamy for using it certainly does not convince either

And Lass, your false indignation of the DFOD is a nonsense. It is used all the time on MN

Will you stop telling me what is in my mind?.

I don't care how often it is used. I don't tell people either on here or in real life to fuck off. I don't actually like that expression and I think it is utter hypocrisy to appropriate an expression (dear) which Cameron used and was vilified for and use it with reference to other women.

I found your DFOD patronising and snide and your iteration of what I am thinking compounds it. There is no false indignation.

You might well have found it patronising, even though you knew well that I did not mean it that way. You then used it to conflate a proposition that I was some kind of MRA type character

You might well have found it patronising, even though you knew well that I did not mean it that way

You can't stop yourself can you ? Still telling me what is in my head.

I thought and still think your comment was patronising, snide, condescending and most of all , hypocritical. You used a term which if used by a man would have been jumped on and now are posting post after post claiming you know better.

All body shaming is horrible tbh. But lets not pretend that males are bodyshamed more often than females are. Its almost just a normal part of life to have females appearances commented on...be it they are toof at, too hairy, too pretty (therefore must be a bimbo) and so on.

Not about a 'word'. About the attitude behind the word. It is about the inability of some very prolific mn feminists to accept they can be just as guilty of misogyny as men

And of "mensplaining" ; and telling women what they are really thinking.

But lets not pretend that males are bodyshamed more often than females are

Nobody was doing that.

Let's face it, the only person on this thread who is alienating people is Mercy. Everyone else has explained their stance fairly well, and whether the rest,of us agree with it or not, we can at least understand and accept it.

"Not about a 'word'. About the attitude behind the word. It is about the inability of some very prolific mn feminists to accept they can be just as guilty of misogyny as men"

I don't think it's mysogeny to disagree with other women is it? And as for the "handmaiden" thing, it's a word with a very specific meaning. Are people saying that the sort of behaviour/attitudes don't exist?

I am the op and wow..just wow at this thread!
Thanks to those that got what I meant, you cheered me up.
Thanks to those that said they would rethink before they mocked penis size again
And for the others...i hope you never have to deal with a son/family member/friend who is hugely impacted and affected by society's piss taking of small penises.

Yes there are women upset about stuff, yes they are traumatised, yes generally women put up with more sexism than men but that doesn't help a lovely lad crying into his pillow about something he has no control over!

Sigh...

for ops son.

I don't think it's misogyny to disagree with other women is it?

That is rather the point of the argument. Chucking "handmaiden" adds about as much as "terf". It's not just disagreeing with other women, it's doing so in a way which seeks to shut down the argument.

And as for the "handmaiden" thing, it's a word with a very specific meaning. Are people saying that the sort of behaviour/attitudes don't exist?

It has a very specific meaning in one dystopian fantasy novel. Has it a universally accepted meaning or is it just like terf? Useful for those who want to use it?

It might apply to say Karen Straughn and her followers (the Honey Badgers I think they call themselves) Are posters on MN who disagree with some of the comments made by some feminists on here in her league? I don't think so.

I think I would be right in saying you would ignore the opinion of anyone who called you a TEEF or a SWERF? I would, and as far as I'm concerned handmaiden is in the same category.

I've given this topic a lot of thought over the past few hours, and I've concluded a few things.

But first, I am so sorry your son is going through this OP. It sounds deeply traumatic, and of course anyone else's suffering doesn't make it better.

I was trying to work out why some of us were a bit piqued by the subject, from a feminist standpoint. And, with respect OP, I think it was due to the 'Can you imagine...' bit in your first post. What I'm saying is, if you'd simply explained your son's situation, or even that of a 'close male friend' I think the response would have been very different. The starting point, however, had a distinct aroma of 'those bloody feminists wouldn't put up with this the other way round.' Now, I know OP didn't say that, but what else was the significance of the 'Can you imagine..' bit? There is a sort of goadiness implicit here, I'm afraid, even if that wasn't the intention. And, of course, many women don't have to 'imagine' this sort of shaming! That's the point!

I get that you're angry and upset OP, and that you weren't trying to goad anyone. But that starting point has an anger against outraged women in it. Women are very often outraged by equivalent body-shaming behaviour - with great justification!

It's not possible within our culture to start a gendered body-shaming thread without acknowledging the climate in which we live. You can't start a thread in a vacuum. The fact is, women do put up with a hell of a lot more of this shit than men do. If OP had started with a tone of 'Look, I know women are often upset by body-shaming, but can we spare a thought for this issue...', I think the thread would have taken a different turn. As it was, we started with a) a reference to a man being an arsehole (just to remind us why women are often angry) and b) a suggestion that women would not put up with equivalent behaviour, when we all know that they do, on a massive scale!

I think the whole 'handmaiden' thing is beyond ridiculous, and has been used as a distraction by some.

Feminism isn't a hobby. People, including me, are still very, very upset by the large-scale sexism they see around them. I wish I didn't see it, but I do, all the time. So I'll see this sort of discussion through that prism. And I'll bite when a discussion starts from a misguided-sounding premise.

Body shaming is wrong, regardless of the sex of the person being targeted.

Handmaid and Handmaiden are misogynist insults. They are used to dismiss the voices of other women by making out that they are too stupid and or brainwashed to be able to form any meaningful views of their own.

As PPs have pointed out, it refers to the book A Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood. The Handmaid of the novel is a reproductive slave who has lost everything and become the property of an official in a totalitarian system. She is shunned by other classes of women in the system and is saddened that the women in different groups have lost the ability to empathise with each other. That is what I find ironic about the use of Handmaid as an insult from anyone who calls themselves feminist. Or claims to have read the book.

Well, she didn't have to mention her son. She did it fairly early on (before the thread 'went' a particular way), but, crucially, after the slightly anti-women tone had been set.

It would have been possible to start a sensitive thread about a sensitive issue without either mentioning her son OR starting from a 'women don't know suffering' stance.

You should check it out Dixie, it's a brilliant book.

Dione Yes, body shaming is wrong regardless etc - but we've sort of covered that.

What are your thoughts on the reasons I suggested for the unease on this thread?

Your take on the handmaiden controversy is perfectly valid of course. You're not the only one who's read the book though! And sometimes words and phrases gain/shed layers of meaning when they emerge from literature...