to think going to a church service when atheist is not that big a deal?

[parentsvsPIL]

My atheist parents take their religion-bashing quite seriously. They make Richard Dawkins look nuanced.

DH and I sing in the local church choir, since it's a good choir, there aren't any other good choirs locally, and we are generally fine with the broad principles being espoused by the church, though we are not believers. It is made fairly explicit that church musicians are not required to be anything more than tolerant of religion.

My family is currently visiting. It being Easter, there's lots of nice music happening at the church, done by our choir. My family loves music and would typically go to anything on offer.

Family have refused outright to allow my niece to go to any of it as they don't want people forcing religion on her. My parents have also refused to go to any of it. My siblings have gone to one service and made lots of comments about being "forced to pray" (we're talking Anglican evensong here, not Billy Graham... they weren't forced to do anything!)

Is this really that big a deal? Well, it clearly is for them, but we just don't get what harm they think it's going to do...

In the absence of evidence that something exists, the scientific, evidence-based position is that it doesn't.

Eg Nessie, unicorns, the supernatural.

In the absence of evidence that something exists, the scientific, evidence-based position is that it doesn't.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence ...

In terms of the afterlife - something that is simply beyond human evidence - then the rational position is agnosticism.

Or take Pascal's wager?

This thread is about experiences of christianity. For those who have experience of it and now shun it, would your atheism prevent you from attending your jewish friend's mum's funeral or a colleague's muslim wedding?

Attending religious weddings and funerals as an atheist isn't hard - no one gets upset if you don't recite the prayers or sing the hymns. Done it many times.

I wouldn't sing anyway, am usually surrounded by excellent voices and I can't hold a tune if it is glued to me.

But other services or religious performances get a polite ' no thanks' which I expect to be respected. No drama needed. This includes rememberance - I wear a poppy and observe the silence, but do not attend services.

Not because I am worried about catching religion, but because to me they are a waste of precious time.

Ok, fair enough - you can't prove a negative. Perhaps I should have said 'rational' or some other similar word. It just seems dogmatic to me to say I'm atheist rather than agnostic.
Either way up, attending church/temple/mosque/synagogue shouldn't be a problem, although I can see it might not be an activity of choice.

YABU , OP.

You're happy with the way religious matters are handled at the church choir, and have come an accommodation with your own non-belief that allows you to take part. Your parents cannot make this compromise, and that is entirely their concern. Their liking for religious music could well come up against the wall of its being in a church, this is just where they happen to draw the line.

The business of the niece is none of yours.

As for cousins complaining about being "forced to pray", there isn't sufficient detail to say how reasonable they were. Possibly they went along accepting an account of the service as being one thing, and then were faced with something different, you don't say. All your account does is imply their attitudes were ridiculous.

I'd have thought the fear of harm would be a bigger problem than getting to observe some people doing some slightly odd stuff with a bit of nice music. Is that what you really think of the service? If so, then your parents have far more respectful view of the matter than you do, by keeping away. Also, the harm is not in that particular service, but what services represent, the active harmfulness of religion that many atheists think is central to all religions.

Special - agree with singing. I cannot and will not sing.

Any Christian event I've been to (except catholic) has been welcoming and non judgmental of my lack of belief (and vocal ability).

What I find odd is that atheists here will baulk any anything Christian but love anything so called multicultural that involves religion.

I'm a pretty hard-line atheist married to another and both of us quite enjoy church - he likes to play the organ, and I like hymns, architecture and very high-church anglican services.

Family are a mix of vicars, atheists, orthodox to non-practicing jews and a large contingent of 'not particularly interested's.

I didn't want DD to go to a faith school, but otherwise we are leaving religion entirely up to her - if she wants to go to church with visiting vicar grandparents then that is fine, ditto synagogue or anywhere else. Her decision. I was brought up attending church and going to very religious schools - I never believed any of it, but my knowledge of hymns and bible stories is extensive which is probably a good thing.

The only thing I do not attend under any circumstances are baptisms or similar for any child under the age of 16 as we feel very strongly that this is a choice an individual should make of their own free will not have imposed upon them. It's caused a few rows.

Not much you can do about your relatives, but they are being a bit nutty. Also a good chance that teenage niece may decide that becoming a devout believer is a wonderful form of rebellion...

It's not 'nutty' not to want to go to a church service, whether you are an atheist or indeed for any other reason. I have only been to funerals in the past 20 odd years, and then only to be supportive to the bereaved as I found the service itself very alienating. Just because the relatives like music doesn't mean they also like music in a religious setting, and yes if you go to a service you are pretty much forced to pray because the service is about prayer and it is a participatory event.

The only unreasonableness is to visit over Easter knowing that the OP and her dh are heavily involved in church, but perhaps they didn't really take on board how heavily involved they are. I'd not visit some of my relatives over Easter as they are celebrants and Easter is a big deal to them (both lots of services to hold and also lots of religious celebrating of their own too). If I did I would expect them not to pressure me to attend, although I am aware how much work it is to organise services etc. Church stuff is their thing and not mine.

Also - when they hear the same music in concerts they love it. My father's favourite bit of music was being done at one of the services, with DH singing the solo part.

They sound a bit hypocritical. Oh I really like this music, it is my favourite. Oh but I can't listen to it in that building (even though the acoustics might actually be really good what with the high roof and all)

I wouldn't go either. Only go to church when have to for wedding or funeral. Otherwise I wouldn't set foot in a church
Many churches make money by letting out their space for community groups or concert venues. I play in a band. We rehearse in a church. There is no religious connection it's just they have the right size space and reasonable rates. Sometimes if we are doing a concert we hire a different church for the vey same reason. So, if you were in such a band or were a relative or friend of someone in the band would you stop taking part or refuse to go and watch because of the venue?

As it happens I am not religious but went to a Catholic mass today. (PILs staying who are devout, would understand if we didn't go but like it when we do. My choice, I didn't have to) TBH I view it as a bit of interesting theatre. The church is beautiful and the music is lovely. I am in no danger of catching religion but see no harm in enjoying the spectacle

They sound a bit hypocritical. Oh I really like this music, it is my favourite. Oh but I can't listen to it in that building (even though the acoustics might actually be really good what with the high roof and all)

Hypocrisy is to pretend to higher standards of conduct than are actually practised. That is not what the people are doing. The references to the building as if it were neutral, merely a big box for doing things in are specious. Church buildings are different, that's why, for instance, when a church building is sold as a block of flats, a ceremony of desanctification is carried out.

Ok, thanks everyone for the perspective. I clearly was being a bit self-centred about my benign experience of religion vs. others' views and experiences. Apologies also for not coming back sooner: relatives, 5mo baby, and all the singing have been keeping me busy...

echt - a couple of points

no that's not my view of the service at all - it was my rather poor paraphrase of what I thought a service could mean, positively viewed, by someone atheist with very non-nuanced views on religion (ie my parents if they were to be positive rather than negative about all this). It could have been construed as me being offensively reductionist and I apologise for any offence i have caused (is sleep deprivation an excuse?).

Re siblings being "forced to pray" as autonomous adults in the most benign of Anglican choral evensongs, having been told several times they really did not need to pretend to pray or to sing (unless they wanted to), where there was no sermon, and where the padre is definitely in favour of "observers" coming along for the music/nice sentiments — they were very much not forced to do anything. As a pp said many people do not have freedom of religious observance or nonobservance - and those people don't include my siblings!

To those pps who have been alienated from the pulpit - that would make me want to leave & not come back. Thankfully the places where I have sung over the years have all been at the far end of the inclusive niceness & tolerance spectrum. It may not be coincidental that these are places that value music highly and make no requirement of their musos to profess daith.

*faith. Not sure what dairh is!

Somewhere can be ever so nice and tolerant (although I generally see tolerance as very much at the bottom of the acceptance spectrum, I don't want my not heterosexual dd to be tolerated, I want her to welcomed and appreciated exactly as she is) and still be alienating.

I've been to services that I'm sure many would think are just lovely, but to me are really jarring because the way that a believer approaches life's challenges and the way I see the world are just radically different. I cannot for example see someone else's pain as a positive learning lesson for others showing gods love. Sentiments like that (and others, that was just an example as I've really only been to funerals recently) make me feel very strongly anti-theist, but perhaps to the OP are quite nice.

Likewise I used to enjoy singing hymns, but now I'm likely to look at and think about the words and realise I can't participate any more. Prayers that I used to say and still have the automatic responses to bother me as well. Atheism encompasses many different ways of thinking beyond simple disbelief/lack of faith.

I agree with you nooka - am trying not to be too specific about my views as this thread is probably quite identifying — and typing with one thumb under wiggly baby...

Exposure to religion does cause harm though, unless taught academically. I wouldn't go to a Britain's First meeting.

Ignoring the evil that religion has done and continues to do, as an excellent comedian said, "some of hymns that they sing have nice chords, but the lyrics are dodgy"

Let us mortify all passion
That would lead us into sin;
And the grave that shuts us in
Shall but prove the gate to heaven.
Jesus here with You I die

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord.
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored,
He has loosed the fateful lightening of His terrible swift sword.
His truth is marching on

Onward, Christian soldiers,
marching as to war,
with the cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ, the royal Master,
leads against the foe;
Forward into battle see His banners go

The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them high and lowly,
And ordered their estate

The smoke of the infernal cave,
Which half the Christian world o’erspread,
Disperse, Thou heavenly Light, and save
The souls by that Impostor led,
That Arab-chief, as Satan bold,
Who quite destroy’d Thy Asian fold

A PP says "What I find odd is that atheists here will baulk any anything Christian but love anything so called multicultural that involves religion."

No posters saying they are atheists have said anything suggesting that this is the case. Again, prejudice about atheism, and implied disdain for other cultures.

I find it a bit that a church choir could potentially be entirely made up of atheists. Surely within Christianity singing in the choir is an act of worship? I assume that most of the music has religious undertones? I would feel a bit hypocritical doing that actually and maybe a bit disrespectful.

YABU regarding your DP's. They are free to make their decision.

witty I am not disputing that religion has been damaging and continues to be so in particular contexts. I alsso think that the church has far too much power and far too much help from the state (in many countries, not just the UK).

But you're not seriously suggesting anyone over about age 10 takes hymn words literally...?

Btw the music to which I alluded upthread is not hymns, it's mass settings, magnificat/ nunc dimittis settings, and motets/anthems.

(and psalms, and te deum settings, lamentations, etc etc)

People have the same passion for their football teams. Football also has a violent side. I dislike football and not mad on religion but there is no way I would not attend a football or religious event because of my beliefs. Both things make people incredibly happy and thats a good thing. If the singing took place in a mosque or a Hindu temple would they also be so stubborn? Or us it just Christianity?

saracrewe most serious cathedral or church choirs will be oulling in singers who are receptive to religious messages and many of whom have been in church music all their lives. But the majority of semi-professional or professional church singers and organists that I have met would probably not describe themselves as Christian. Some are, many are not. Some are other religions. The effect is magnified where I live because it's the only choir of its type here, but I first observed the phenomenon in Oxbridge chapel choirs.