To want to raise unconscious racism issue with the hospital?

[funnyface80]

Trying to keep a long story short. Baby is mixed race and no one has ever questioned whether baby was mine before as she looks like us although more white than asian. Nanny is white. We are in hospital with a very distressed baby who only wants to be in my arms and we are waiting for some help. A&E notes talk about accident where both mum and nanny present. Doctor 1 comes into the room and starts talking to nanny as if she was mum even though baby clearly with me. I stop her questioning and say I'm mum as nanny would not have been able to answer these questions. No apology just a quizzical look. Later as we wait for further treatment, baby even more distressed and DH now present, Doctor 2 comes in and asks who is who. We introduce ourselves as mum and dad and then Doctor 2 (Asian) proceeds to talk to nanny as if mum. I say again quite firmly that I am mum. No apology. This time I'm quite cross as baby again in my arms and yet doctor simply ignored me when she walked in. Should I raise this unconscious bias with the hospital so their staff are thought to be more respectful and less racist even if its without malice?

I have mixed race kids who are not the same colour as me so other people assume they are not my children, especially when i'm in a group of mums. They do, however, mistake me for parent of a child who is same colour as me. I do find it slightly annoying but don't really think it's a racist thing - just incorrect assumption. I would possibly make the same mistake.

And many people (like me) who ARE of colour disagree with this being a serious matter.

Maybe once you have been spat at in the street, name called, turned down for jobs because of ethnicity, told to fuck off back to China/Pakistan/Curryland (yes, Curryland)... you learn to pick your battles.

Could it be that while you were trying to calm your baby down, they were directing it at the other adults in the room so as to know the information was being absorbed? I know when my DD has been poorly and at the doctors I haven't been able to take in everything they say because I'm so focused on her.

It really makes me uncomfortable when non-white Mumsnetters speak of incidents that they felt were racist and get shouted down really aggressively about being over sensitive, what is wrong with you, get a life, you must go looking for offence, etc etc.

It happens ^every time*. It really makes me uncomfortable to see people shouting down another person's perspective like that.

Or as primaryboodle said...

Many of the people who are minimising your upset have probably had the luxury of being white and not being a minority skin colour and having the experiences that accompany that

I mean, let's turn the tables: if my kids looked really Asian and me, as a blue eyed blonde, regularly got asked if my children were adopted (possibly from abroad) would I not have the right to be annoyed about the prejudices and stereotypes that would cause people to make crass assumptions?

*Unconscious bias means you can't improve it with training courses can you :-)

No it doesn't mean that.

A training course can address unconscious bias, so in future, people will think deliberately about avoiding potential bias before it can occur subconsciously.*

What you've said makes no logical sense whatsoever. A training course can only help with conscious bias. Unconscious thoughts, if you believe they exist, are unavailable to self-analysis or introspection. That is precisely why they are defined as unconscious. Your idea that people can somehow check themselves before they have an unconscious thought would mean that their bias thought was not actually unconscious but in fact a conscious one.

It's possible that they assumed she was your partner.

Like a PP has said, I'd raise it more as a training issue.
Dr2 would have rankled me more. Why ask who was who only to then assume anyway? Doesn't give you much confidence you were being listened to which could very much impact treatment.
YANBU to be miffed at that at least.

@heyroly What about the "non-white" mumsnetters who disagree with another "non-white" mumsnetter?

That comment about the "luxury of being white" really grinds my gears. I certainly have not had that luxury - (Please see my previous comment about picking battles).

So is the OP actually at A&E now do we know?

I'd have assumed that they thought she was your partner and therefore you were both mum.

And it's logical to address the parent not holding the baby as more likely to focus

I hope your baby is OK OP

And yeah - as PP said - I don't think that a mainly white audience will be the most empathetic ear OP - sorry for what sounds like an upsetting day overall

Sunshine why do you think you should get to pick the OPs battles for her? For me? For others?

People are describing a really fucking common MN response here - just because this time you happen to agree with that view, do you really think it makes it not racist?

Why is everyone having a dig at the OP? Her dh wasn't there when she needed to take a distressed baby to hospital but nanny was so they went together. Assume nanny is for moral support if nothing else. Not weird at all.

some posters jealous much?

Taking the nanny with her is neither here nor there - people usually go along for support.
Also, considering the nanny was also present during the incident, it's basic common sense that she be there in case the dr's need to ask her anything.
I'm assuming the nanny was still 'on shift' when the incident happened, so her going along with OP and dc is perfectly normal.

Sorry this happened to you, funnyface. It's frustrating to deal with that when you are already in a stressful situation trying to deal with a sick child. It sounds like some kind of unconscious bias on behalf of the staff but it's hard to tell if what was at the root of their assumptions. Could be racism or it could be just rushed A&E staff not paying attention.

All those people upthread going on about someone with a 'nanny' living in a different world and questioning the OP for having her nanny with her when other parents can cope without it - get over yourselves. It is normal for many working parents to have a nanny / babysitter / child minder / whatever you want to call the job. I'm sure you are all well aware of that

Yy, Inion, OP, I'd raise it via PALS as a training issue.

without having to also deal with change bags and everything else

I find a length of fabric (commonly referred to as a "strap") attached to either end of the bag while positioned over the shoulder to be a very efficient method of "dealing" with change bags.

If you can clarify what is meant by "everything else" perhaps I can help further. My consultancy rates are very reasonable.

It's definitely a training issue -
dr 1 failed to confirm identity which could have had data protection ramifications
dr 2 failed communicate how he would handle the situation
They both failed to apologise when corrected

my da was in hospital recently, mum understands basic english and is next of kin. i'm a fluent english speaker and was doing the translating for her.
the dr told my mum that he would be talking to both of us even if it looked like he was just talking to me. he reassured her before he started talking about the medical stuff.
small thing but it matters.

I don't think there's anything wrong with quietly raising it; they certainly didn't mean anything by it but you have every right to be frustrated by them ignoring you and making assumptions. My (POC) MIL is in a similar position where people (both white and POC) struggle to acknowledge her extremely white-looking son is actually her flesh and blood child and I know it bothers her too. Hopefully people will become more thoughtful as awareness increases, but a quiet word to ask them to be more considerate will help the process along.

In would say ignorance not racism in this case. I had the midwifes asking me all about my family's reaction ,to me (Asian parent) marrying DH (white) ... 3 hours post emcs!
DH never gets questions, he takes out our mixed race niblings and DDs...all varying beautiful shades! Always assume he is the father to all of them.
I would maybe have a chat with somebody at the hospital so similar encounters can be avoided?

OP, having read 5 pages of comment and discussion I am still non the wiser. What, exactly is the problem?

As someone who has worked in this kind of environment before (SW not HCP) I would have assumed couple, and directed the chat to the non-distracted parent. However, of COURSE there is often subconscious racism. And sexism BTW because dads rarely get mistaken for nannies.

When DD1 was born, DH (white) and myself (Asian) took her for a checkup. I popped to the bathroom and DH got called in. DR was insistent that DD has not had a BCG vaccination, while DH is adamant she has...DR still arguing...until I entered the room and just got an 'Oh...OK' look, the penny dropped...why he did not just check notes I don't know!

A doctor once thought my dad was my husband. I was mortified

Me too! When my Dad and I used to meet for lunch or coffee when we both worked in the city people blatantly assumed he was my Sugar Daddy as he was a bit of a silver fox and I was bleached blonde at the time. He'd get approving nods and congratulations from men and I got death glares from women. If anything was ever said we'd correct them, but I mostly made a show of addressing him as Dad as loudly as possible without being ridiculous.

dr 1 failed to confirm identity which could have had data protection ramifications

Not just that, but clinical implications too. There are many good reasons you should always be asked to verify exactly who you are when you go to A&E or a medical appointment.

And for those posters despairing of NHS training courses for staff - it's actually a full time job just training in one specific area. Staff are trained when they start somewhere and then will have annual, biannual or triannual updates depending on the course. It's not like they're always having courses, but there are a LOT of people employed by the NHS.

And despite training, you'd be surprised by the amount of staff who just. Don't. Get. It. And fail to correctly identify patients. Search the news websites, even something as trivial as a mistake in a name or address have resulted in patient deaths.

Getting the identities and details of patients and their representatives correct is absolutely vital.

OP you should definitely give feedback either through the friends and family test (Google it) or PALS. This sort of feedback is invaluable to trusts, especially when given calmly and constructively. Ignore the posters shouting you down - at any of the trusts I've worked at we would have wanted to know this!

I know what you mean. It's like when that North Korean expert was on the BBC and his kids burst into the room - so many people, including mainstream media, assumed their Asian mum who ran in to grab them was the nanny.

Because the kids looked white? Because lots of people assumed that an Asian woman would be servile to a white family, rather than a white man's partner? Who knows.