'There is no need for feminism in first world countries because females are no longer oppressed...'

[TinyRick]

And apparently we have 'more rights than men now'.

One example of many - www.debate.org/opinions/women-are-not-oppressed-in-first-world-countries

I was going to post this on the Feminism boards but I have heard this from females too so thought I would post here to see views from those who do think this and agree with it.

I'm on a social media site and this comes up quite often. Yes, quite presumably from young males but I have also read about the 'Red Pill' and the 'MGTOW' movements which are mostly populated by the older males.

Aibu to think that Feminism in the first world is still needed and as relevant as ever? And amongst our 'luxuries' we are still the oppressed class?

Lweji I'm not sure if the smiley face after the "feminism is for equality" means you know it isn't.

Feminism was for equality when women were an underclass. Now it is about looking for smaller and smaller things to blame men for whether it is their fault or not. The fairly shocking anti-trans sentiment on MN is a great example of that. The expectation of double-standards for the betterment of woman-kind and the expectation of equality of outcome despite the fact we have equality of opportunity (and above!) are all things that have turned me off feminism and made me realise that what you call it and what it is are very different things.

I'd suggest that the fact that so many women (and men) believe in equality of the sexes but either do not identify feminism or actively would not want to be labelled as such shows that the movement and the ideal are very much separated. That stats are on my side. Is it something like 5% in the UK want to label themselves as feminists.

STFU- which particular men's rights are you advocating for?

I've thought a lot about the so-called "man hating" element of feminism. What is appears to be is mostly a demand for women to be treated as equal to me, which - yes - will require the ceding of some male privilege.

Then I got to think about "woman hating". It's fucking everywhere. It's entrenched so deeply in our culture and society that it's often an indistinguishable part of the status quo.

STFU- which particular men's rights are you advocating for?

The right to continue oppressing women as much as he needs to do in order to get his needs met.

Men have all the rights they would have if women just went and left earth. All the freedom. All the money.

Men are still harmed by male violence, but that's not women's fault, they'd still be harmed by male violence if women left the planet. Obviously.
But then they couldn't whine that feminists should solve their problems, they'd have to do something about it themselves.

foodtime i didnt say it was a competition! I was merely trying to remark on the dissonance that some people have wherein they can accept that some groups may need to discuss and campaign about their oppression and specific issues facing them, but will not accept that women are a group who may need to do this too.
I think you have misread what i was trying to say. Or maybe i didnt phrase it well.

I agree people have been doing it to women for years. My point was not in opposition to that.

Bertrand More of a retroactive (and generally passive) advocate. I was more trying to get ahead of the accusations, as when you have an opinion not in line with the sisterhood, you're usually accused of being an MRA, male troll.

With regards to my advocacy, I see a thread like this or hear an opinion in real life and suggest that isolated sexist incidents do not require 'outrage' or 'devastated' outpourings or that underrepresentation of women in STEM or in the boardroom is not sexism. Most recently, I didn't reply but wanted to, there was a thread where a man was told he should have stopped walking or crossed the road because he was coincidentally following a woman home and guessed he was frightening her. There was another about a woman at a petrol station who wouldn't phone a taxi for a man. So many stories were about never trusting a man and being suspicious of their intentions. I didn't post as I don't like to argue with someone who has such a personal response but, in theory, they were all complete shit. He probably just wanted to get home and she was mean-spirited and paranoid.

I am especially interested in education which I feel is failing men at the moment and this needs to be redressed. Not in ceding female privilege (CaoNiM...) but helping both genders / sexes. Helping one group should not be at the expense of another for the simple fact that the group being helped is setting their sights too low. Aim to have exactly the same as the privileged group, not a mean average. That's what we wanted when I was a staunch feminist.

If you think I'm wrong, how do you explain the numbers of people deserting feminism?

vestal

The right to continue oppressing women as much as he needs to do in order to get his needs met.

I was just about to post but thanks so much for telling me I must be a man for not siding with you and your boring, fucking one-sided, unintellectual and vacuous attempts putting down anyone who isn't on your highly-debatable 'side'.

Anyway, the adults are trying to talk and surely there's a youtube channel you can spam somewhere?

STFU you only think its double standards because many things assume male as normal and so when something needs to cater to women it looks like unfair treatment. In many circumstances women may need to be treated differently to men to achieve equality. Equality is not about having things exactly the same.
Think about someone who cant walk, as a more striking example. Is it equality if the building they work in only has steps to enter? Everybody else has to walk up the steps.
They need something different in order to give them an equal access.
Thats a really simplified version of the argument but perhaps you can see my point?
There are issues that face women specifically that make their lives difficult. The most striking example of this is in the workplace. Most workplace laws were written with men in mind because men used to be the predominant people working in most cases. Now that isnt the case any more. So women need laws that cater to their specific issues in order to protect them and allow them to work as men are allowed to work.
Its not equality for example, to immediately fire someone because they get pregnant. So laws have been created to make sure that its more difficult to do that etc etc,
This is still a work in progress.

STFU are you Fay Weldon by any chance

This is still a work in progress.

That's where we disagree. No woman can be fired for getting pregnant and in most circumstances, a ramp and rearrangement of offices would allow someone in a wheelchair (if they were the best applicant) to get the job and flourish. That's what I mean by equality of opportunity. You get bigots in every walk of life but they are few and far between and becoming fewer and further (farther?). It comes down to reasonable adjustments in every situation. What laws do you think are still written in favour of men or with men in mind?

ps. Thank you for not posting that ignorant image of 3 people on different boxes,

No woman can be fired for getting pregnant

On paper yes, but the reality is very different. It still can and does happen.

STFU in regards to the men following you on the street etc
I have been violently assaulted by a man in the past. I am however now happily married to a man and have a son and many male friends so when i talk about this please dont think that its because i think ALL men are a threat or even 50% of men. Its only a few that pose a real threat but it does centre on hatred of women. The man who hurt me had done it to all the other women he had been in a relationship with. His father had done it to his mother and his fathers father to his grandmother.

Another example of this that i often talk about is that one night on my way home from work i walked past a group of drunk student guys. They were dressed as hunters fancy dress and had those horns that they were blowing and shouting 'you make me horny!' Im sure they were just having a laugh but they actually picked me off the ground and carried me down the road towards the pub with them. Now as soon as they saw that i was actually terrified, they put me down and apologised. They all seemed like nice lads.

The problem is that they didnt think. Its so ingrained in them that women are there for entertainment that in their drunken state they actually thought it was just funny to pick someone half the size of them off the ground and carry them down the street.
They meant no harm but they just didnt think about how that might feel for a woman. Paticularly one who may have been previously assaulted. And altho you are only looking at a small number of men who do the assaulting you are looking at vast numbers of women who have experienced assault. So its very very likely that a woman you are walking past may have experienced a man being violent to her. Its never okay to touch or shout suggestively at a woman you dont know without her permission.
All men need to realise that some men do hurt women because they are women. It would just be good if guys could take this on board without thinking that it meant that women thought they were all predators.

deleteordecay i know. I posted earlier that i got pregnant on a zero hours contract and just had my hours completely dropped as soon as i started to get sick and could not work as hard.

The problem is not (only) the law.

It goes to things as simple as who takes parental leave (which is optional), who becomes a SAHP, who does the house work, who goes off on hobbies, who is expected to be a good parent by default and who is praised for the most basic parenting or household work, who gets their way of dressing or behaviour blamed for sexual assaults, who is told not to get drunk not to get raped, etc.

lazy I said that I don't think that sexism and misogyny isn't a 'thing', simply that it is not the norm - even less than it used to be - and that it isn't feminism that's needed to stop it. The man who hurt you is not representative of society and is a sad example of a bad person doing bad things.

re. the second comment, I don't think that this was ingrained two-tiered view of society. I think that they could have behaved inappropriately with men or women. You're right, they probably didn't think about triggering ("how it may feel for [a woman] previously assaulted")

All men need to realise that some men do hurt women because they are women.

And vice versa. Why should men take this on board? This is the kind of comment that riles me. You seem really nice and have balanced views but it seems like you want all men to accept their privilege or do one of those terrible Blairite 'apologies for slavery' type things where the innocent apologize or acknowledge that the guilty have committed crimes. It's pointless.

STFU- I don't think I understand you properly. When you say "there was a thread where a man was told he should have stopped walking or crossed the road because he was coincidentally following a woman home and guessed he was frightening her." are you saying that he should have carried on doing something that he guessed was frightening her?

Lweji

Parental leave - the one who has milk coming from her / their breasts. Who is recovering from stitches and from having a baby stretching their insides to breaking point. If DH had ever suggested taking some of my maternity leave and turning it into paternity leave, I'd have thrown the milker breast-pump into his face.

Both parents are expected to be good.

Housework - the one with the most time at home (often women: see above).

Mode of dress leading to blame for sexual assaults is pure ignorance but thankfully rare. That raises an interesting point where that judge recently dared suggest that women can protect themselves or minimise their risk and got slated on MN. That was a prime example of feminists jumping on anyone who dares speak their mind.

Parental leave - the one who has milk coming from her / their breasts

Do you know what Parental Leave is?
Not the same as Maternity Leave

are you saying that he should have carried on doing something that he guessed was frightening her?

Honestly, I'm a splinters-in-the-bum-from-sitting-on-the-fence type gal, but...

I don't think he should have crossed the road or waited on the corner. Why should he? If it had been raining, should he have stood getting cold and wet in the rain because someone had tricked her into believing in 'rape culture' (not goady - there's no such culture). I believ in Wheaton's law and if you can make someone else feel better by doing something or not doing something then on the whole you should but I don't think he had any responsibility (morally or legally or what have you) to do something to make her feel better because he happened to be a man. That is not equality.

I frequently but my posting style and details are easily identifiable yet you are recognisable by username and opinion. Given the thread title, can you answer my question?

"If you think I'm wrong [and feminism is needed], how do you explain the numbers of people deserting feminism?"

Both parents are expected to be good.

What is considered good depends on the sex of the parent.

Housework - the one with the most time at home (often women: see above).

Have you seen the research on this, even when both work full time? women work a lot more.

Mode of dress leading to blame for sexual assaults is pure ignorance but thankfully rare.

Which planet do you live on?

edit: I frequently NC but my posting style...

There are laws in place and many people make and female talk the talk but I think that there is still an attitude toward women very generally in society.
Pornography is an extreme example but the way women are described on the film titles is an indication of how many men view women.
As pps have said the way many, many women are expected to fall into the role of all-organising domestic factotum.
I find a lot of media and advertising incredibly rigid on how women are portrayed.
I still ask myself many times 'would you find a man doing this/worrying about this/expected to do this?'

*male

Mode of dress leading to blame for sexual assaults is pure ignorance but thankfully rare

If you believe this to be true then you are off your rocker. Seriously.

16yr old girl pursued by her 'nice guy' boss. Called a 'hoe' for finally reporting him. Boss not punished, just transferred. USA.
www.the-pool.com/news-views/latest-news/2017/14/a-teenager-reported-her-sexual-harassment-and-her-friends-threw-a-party-for-her-abuser

Things judges have said in the last week and a bit about women. Including a woman who was 'too intelligent' to be a victim of domestic abuse, despite her husband beating her with his cricket bat and pouring bleach down her throat.
www.the-pool.com/news-views/latest-news/2017/13/zoe-beaty-on-the-things-judges-have-said-about-women-this-week

Yes women in non-Western countries do have it harder than the majority of women in Western countries, however we are certainly far from gender equality in this country (UK)

Many things about the Houser story don;t ring true kirstxx or at least make me wonder if there are two sides to a story.

For a start, why would everyone in her workplace feel for the man as well as a large company? Perhaps she wasn't a poor victim. You can blame misogyny and internalised misogyny* but you could also consider that this seems like not such a blacn and white case.

The headline uses the words "rape culture" so it's lost its credibility within the first two sentences.

*is that like reverse racism = not real?