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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

'There is no need for feminism in first world countries because females are no longer oppressed...'

458 replies

TinyRick · 07/04/2017 11:52

And apparently we have 'more rights than men now'.

One example of many - www.debate.org/opinions/women-are-not-oppressed-in-first-world-countries

I was going to post this on the Feminism boards but I have heard this from females too so thought I would post here to see views from those who do think this and agree with it.

I'm on a social media site and this comes up quite often. Yes, quite presumably from young males but I have also read about the 'Red Pill' and the 'MGTOW' movements which are mostly populated by the older males.

Aibu to think that Feminism in the first world is still needed and as relevant as ever? And amongst our 'luxuries' we are still the oppressed class?

OP posts:
grannytomine · 10/04/2017 21:51

I think there is a balance and it is hard to find the right point. When I was a young mum in 1971 I got alot of criticism for working. Most working class women worked part-time and the term "pin money" was still frequently used. I was married just after my 17th birthday and a mother 12 months later. I wasn't a good student and couldn't wait to leave school but giving birth changed me. Our rented flat wasn't good enough for my child and so I went back to work, I persuaded my boss to give me day release to college and as well as having three more babies I got professional qualifications and my career progressed. My husband became disabled and I was the main breadwinner as well as mother and carer. We have a nice house, investments and a good income, my children all have degrees and good jobs.

Now I look at young mums and I sometimes wonder if me and other women like me have been the cause of so many young women not having the choice to be fulltime mothers. We fought for the right to work, childcare was a joke in the 1970s with less provision than 30 years earlier, I wrote a dissertation about it, we won the battle but sometimes I look back at the years of juggling and wonder if we lost the war.

My daughter is saving now so that when she starts a family, hopefully in the next couple of years, she will be able to take a year off work. I don't remember any of my friends worrying about that in the 70s, if you wanted to stay at home no one questioned it.

Mothers have to take responsibility for their sons, mine aren't sexist, they do their share of housework/childcare and their wives and MsIL will agree on that. Why? Well they grew up thinking it was normal for women to work and they were expected to do their share. None of them rely on their wives to remember dates or buy presents, my sons definitely choose presents for me as they are often a reference to something in the past that their wives wouldn't even know about.

I find it sad that women attack each other and often find women far more judgemental about each other than men were. I worked in a male dominated area for many years and yes there were moments that weren't great but for the vast majority of the time the men I worked with were brilliant colleagues. When I started work women were often earning half what men were and I know it still isn't equal but it is alot better and I think some of the gap must be down to some women choosing to take a career break when they have children, it seems to be a minority now but it still happens.

I don't view men as the enemy and I wouldn't expect any man to cross the road because I might be frightened. I grew up in a rough inner city area and I've never been frightened, I learned how to deal with kerb crawlers when I was 11 and whilst some women might like the man to cross the road I would feel patronised if a man did it to me. Men can't win sometimes can they?

My daughter earns more than her partner and he does the majority of the housework because she works long hours. One of my DsIL earns more than my son, I think they are pretty equal on housework. I find lots of young men I know do their fair share, I think my generation might be skewing the result on that one as I know lots of women my age who rate being a housewife very highly, the housework and cooking and high heels and make up genes passed me by.

I don't have great concerns about equality for most adult women in the UK, the group I worry about is the younger ones. Teenage boys seem to have a hefty diet of porn and it is affecting their view of what it means to be a man or a women and unfortunately girls seem to be buying into as well. So for that reason I think we need feminism and it should be fighting porn because that is where I see the threat. The damage done by porn added to poor opportunities for many because schools seem to be failing many white, working class boys seems a great danger to me.

Of course I accept that women in their 20s 30s and 40s might see it very differently to me. The view from here might be different.

grannytomine · 10/04/2017 21:52

Sorry, I got carried away there, didn't mean to waffle on.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 10/04/2017 23:11

You make some very interesting points granny

When I started work women were often earning half what men were and I know it still isn't equal but it is alot better and I think some of the gap must be down to some women choosing to take a career break when they have children

Well this it must be. It gets mentioned a lot on MN, but beyond generally saying it's not fair I'm not sure what women who are affected expect. They can't expect childless peers or mothers ( or fathers for that matter) who go back to work quickly to put their careers on hold.

I agree with you re porn.

slug · 11/04/2017 10:20

Ohh look!! there's a statue to STFU

mummytime · 11/04/2017 11:11

Well this it must be. It gets mentioned a lot on MN, but beyond generally saying it's not fair I'm not sure what women who are affected expect. They can't expect childless peers or mothers ( or fathers for that matter) who go back to work quickly to put their careers on hold.

This is only part of the story. The fact is that most women who have children find themselves on the "mummy track" afterwards, where it is assumed they will be less reliable and less ambitious. This doesn't happen to men when have children.
But the other point is that bad work life practises make it harder for both parents to share childcare responsibility. In places which are more egalitarian working hours tend to be shorter/ not exceeded. And if everyone is going to be working until they are 70, then 10 years spent raising children should not be a real problem. After all we need children in society to provide for all of us in our old age.

grannytomine · 11/04/2017 12:09

mummytime I agree it's not the whole story, I think it is complicated. I worked with a woman who took 4 weeks off when she had a baby and that included her 2 weeks summer holiday somewhere abroad (can't remember now where it was.) She finished work on the Friday and went into hospital for an elective CS on the Monday, was discharged on the Friday and went abroad the following Monday so baby was exactly 1 week old and they took nanny with them, they were driving and I wouldn't have fancied it myself but each to their own. They got back 2 weeks later and she had the rest of that week to settle baby into routine with nanny and then went back to work. She only took 2 weeks as maternity leave, we thought she was mad as even if she only wanted the 4 weeks off why not keep the annual leave in case she needed it later in the year?

She was very ambitious and didn't want to have it on her file that she took any maternity leave but you have to take 2 weeks. I don't think most women would want to do that, personally 4 weeks after delivery I had barely got into a routine of getting dressed and combing my hair by 8 am so I had no chance of going back to work at that stage, I don't think they would have appreciated me in the office in my nightie with my hair standing on end. All credit to her as she came back like nothing had happened. She thought I was loopy for taking a year off, we were pregnant at the same time.

I think the shortest time I took for maternity leave was 8 months and I don't think it had much impact on my career. For someone who left school at 15 without an O level to my name I ended up earning over £70k a year when I retired over 2 years ago. I live in an area where the average pay is quite low so I was happy with what I achieved. If I lost some money because of 4 lots of maternity leave I feel it was worth it and that time was precious.

I think being reliable is important, I have been helping a friend who has recently bought a business and two of his employees are young mothers. They both have alot of time off work and have a really entitled attitude about it, when my kids were little I did have good backup arrangements and other than children being in hospital I rarely took time off because of the children and I think good backup is important. I always felt I would be letting other working mothers down if I didn't do everything possible to prove that mothers can be relied on. My DIL relies on me alot and I have thought of starting a "granny" service so local mums who don't have family to rely on have someone who can do a pick up if kids are unwell, or get them to the dentist for a check up. I think it could be a good business as I know lots of the mums/kids at the schools as my grandchildren are there and I volunteer at the school one day a week. I wonder if its worth starting a business at my age and if mums would pay for it? I could call it "grannytoyours." Grin

slug · 11/04/2017 12:31

Of course no one has mentioned the other big benefit of maternity leave, the opportunities it gives to the workforce.

I work in a career that has no formal route in, is very small and highly desirable to people with backgrounds in a few other careers (predominantly ex-teachers). To get a permanent job you need experience and yet experience is very difficult to gain anywhere but on the job. Maternity leave cover gives people an opportunity to get in on the ground floor, see if it is right for them and gain enough experience to go for the permanent positions.

These short term contracts improve workplace flexibility, open up careers that were previously closed or very difficult to get into and can be very beneficial to companies as well as sometimes a new person brings in a new perspective, even if they are only there for a short time.

Unfortunately, some men don't like it being pointed out to them that they got their start on the career ladder because women have babies. Perhaps they worry that if they take time off for paternity leave, their replacement may shine a light on their mediocrity. Hmm

GloriaGilbert · 11/04/2017 12:49

I believe the word for the system we live under is capitalism not patriarchy.

I totally agree.

Of course, because women bear children, and tend to raise them, they are disadvantaged in the workforce.

This is the driving force behind the so-called gender pay gap.

grannytomine · 11/04/2017 12:52

Slug, that is a very good point and I have seen that myself.

BeyondUser24601 · 11/04/2017 12:53

Need to catch up on rest of thread, but want to say I think that grannyservice is a great idea!

Atenco · 11/04/2017 13:56

"grannytoyours" is a good idea. I remember when my dd was only seven and had chickenpox I could only take three days off, because there was no sick pay in my job, and then I had to leave her by herself, otherwise we wouldn't have eaten that week.

grannytomine · 11/04/2017 13:59

Oh dear maybe I need to bite the bullet, I've been thinking about it for a couple of years, since I retired, I think I need to find out if I would need to register or anything. I feel a bit nervous and excited all at the same time.

Atenco · 11/04/2017 15:56

Whatabout "Rent-a-Granny" as a name

grannytomine · 11/04/2017 17:51

Oh yes that sounds good. Grannies can be so useful, well some of them, everyone needs a granny for backup childcare even if they have to rent one.

WBacca · 23/01/2018 12:19

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

EggsonHeads · 23/01/2018 13:01

Well, women do have the upper hand in some respects. Custody battles, social mobility, positive discrimination, trail by media, same sex couples begetting children. But in other respects they do not, lower standards of education (hence the push for positive discrimination), physical limitations posed be female bodies-in particular regarding to unfair burden of contraception and sacrifices associated with child baring, greater vulnerability to sexual and domestic violence. Of course men have their own struggles in particular to having equal opportunity and right towards their children and the societal and institutional bias against men who are accused of rape/sexual assaults, then they are discriminated against in order to mask inadequate education of girls and women, mental health access and stigma, no legal protection for boys against genital mutilations. On a whole women still have it harder but it's no longer a case that men are dominant and oppress women and women are forced to take it. Women also oppress women, women (in a minority of cases) contribute to some of the inequalities that men face. Women's rights still need protecting, they will always need protection. But, focusing entirely on the rights and needs of women will not eradicate inequality between the sexes, indeed ignoring men's rights (like the right to taking paternal leave without discrimination) will hinder the liberation of women from the inequalities that continue to exist. A feminocentric dialogue on inequality between the sexes is no longer enough. A more male inclusive discussion needs to take place about where inequality exists, what men can do to help alleviate the unfair burden of women (for example demanding more male onerous methods of contraception) and what women can do to help men (for example stopping with all this guilty until proven otherwise bullshit) and what they can do to help each other (for example making it easier for fathers to shoulder the majority of childcare responsibles so the women are freeer to choose not to be the main caregivers and men a freer to be more involved with rearing their children).

theDailyShow · 23/01/2018 13:28

Women have not only 'won' but are streaking ahead in first world countries. Capitalism supports those who are best in their roles and girls / women leave school and university with better grades to head into better jobs.

We have freedom of opportunity and can sue if not. We have legal protection if treated unfairly.

What some women don't like is fairness. They want a headstart and equality of outcome and are frankly embarrassing.

On a thread I've just read, women shouldn't pay half of the bill on a date as women have already spent money on clothes and makeup which the man didn't.

Feminism has won!

DeleteOrDecay · 23/01/2018 13:44

If feminism has 'won', then why are two women a week killed by their violent partners?

Why are 85k women raped every year?

Why when a woman comes out and says she was raped is she still shamed and accused of lying?

Why is there a sexual assault epidemic? Why are so many women coming out and saying #metoo and why are most of the perpetrators of these assaults men?

Why are women's aid and rape crisis centres so desperately needed to keep women and children safe from violent males?

Why is Julie Walters on the news right now campaigning for women's refuges?

Why do we even need women's refuges? Since feminism has 'won' and we are now apparently on equal footing with men. There is no danger, right?

Why is sexism and misogyny so rife to the point where it washes over us most of the time?

Why is it still acceptable to treat women's bodies like commodities to be bought and sold?

Why are women still expected to 'perform femininity' in order to please the male gaze?

Why is porn literally everywhere, yet more and more women are not attending their cervical screening appointments because they are embarrassed?

I'm sure there's more but I don't have time at the moment. Don't tell me, and the rest of the intelligent and strong women on these boards that feminism has won. That is a woefully ignorant thing to say. Feminism has accomplished a lot but the battle isn't over.

theDailyShow · 23/01/2018 14:14

@DeleteOrDecay

Were you aware that there's more to writing an intelligent post than anaphora.

DeleteOrDecay · 23/01/2018 14:23

Not trying to be intelligent I'm simply demonstrating that feminism still has a way to go before it has 'won'.

derxa · 23/01/2018 14:31

Veterinary Science:80/20 This one is shocking.

theDailyShow · 23/01/2018 14:36

"Not trying to be intelligent"

Nailed it!

SumThucker · 23/01/2018 14:44

Were you aware that there's more to writing an intelligent post than anaphora.

You're clearly not aware a question posed requires a question mark.

EggsonHeads · 23/01/2018 14:46

I think that we can take that as an example of a systematic failure in education for women @TheDailyShow

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 23/01/2018 14:47

thedailyshow

Wow...arent you the charmer