'There is no need for feminism in first world countries because females are no longer oppressed...'

[TinyRick]

And apparently we have 'more rights than men now'.

One example of many - www.debate.org/opinions/women-are-not-oppressed-in-first-world-countries

I was going to post this on the Feminism boards but I have heard this from females too so thought I would post here to see views from those who do think this and agree with it.

I'm on a social media site and this comes up quite often. Yes, quite presumably from young males but I have also read about the 'Red Pill' and the 'MGTOW' movements which are mostly populated by the older males.

Aibu to think that Feminism in the first world is still needed and as relevant as ever? And amongst our 'luxuries' we are still the oppressed class?

cathf Interesting that you equate sexism and objecting to sexism as claiming victim hood.
Why is it so difficult for employers to offer contracts that suit working parents? Other countries manage it perfectly well, and their fathers bond more closely with their children as a result.

Yeah honeylulu more men need to fight for their rights regarding staying at home minding the children. At least your husband did his bit! If more men did that they wouldn't be laughed at when they requested it. And women wouldnt be assumed to be primary carers while simultaneously officially regarded as not. It's too convoluted. Hopefully this is just a transitional phase and there will soon be more equal numbers of men and women taking on the traditional 'wifework' roles.

Yes- men do need to fight for their rights to do undervalued, underpaid jobs. And to do half the housework and childcare.

I noted, but didn't respond to, Mermaid's post but didn't say anything because she seemed very distressed by her experience. The idea that marriage is always equivalent to prostitution is not a mainstream feminist position, though it is held by some lesbian separatists.

The "kernel of truth" is not, to my mind, that marriage = prostitution, but that too many men feel entitled to sex and that too many women lack the confidence and sense of self to turn such men down. There are a lot of couples where the man feels he can have sex whenever he wants and the woman thinks she has no choice but to acquiesce to his demands.

This was not true of my marriage - we only had sex when we both wanted to - but sadly it is true of some. The only way to stop it is for kids to be brought up discussing consent and entitlement. Bring it out into the open so kids are forewarned and armed.

@Bertrand

Sorry - I've been on an aeroplane - did you miss me and robustly challenging my opinions?

You said earlier that you didn't see what male rights (I said issues) needed addressing yet when I mentioned them, you said it wasn't down to feminists to do so. That was something I had never suggested - nothing but a straw woman argument.

Anyone who has suggested that feminism has lost its way has been told they're wrong. They've been told they must be a feminist because they are a women ("these are not two distinct groups") and they have the piss taken if they suggest there are any areas where men need help too they are attacked from all sides with sarcasm and calls of MRA.

One intelligent poster (may even have been you) spoke about second and third wave feminism. I think they were very much on the right lines but they didn't acknowledge that these 'waves' supercede one another, IMO and that whilst both of us have disdain for third wave feminism, admiration for the first wave and direct experience of second wave, I feel that, like the Flag of St George, the toxic aspect has over-ridden the positive and despite being told it was sneering, I'll say again that I think, if feminism were a company, it would be being told to have an image make-over and serious rebranding.

I answered at length with what issues I think men (although mostly applicable to boys) face. Education, ironic misandry, 3rd wave feminism, non-existent male-spaces.

You refused to even give an opinion as to why the nearly irrefutable (considering the sources) evidence shows an enormous difference between those who believe in equality between the sexes and those who want to be called a feminist exists.

Nb. No jobs on the free market are underpaid or undervalued. They are paid what they are worth. Sometimes more (see government subsidies).

Nb. That's opinion. Not fact.

I have to agree with another pp here.
Most of the problems that men face have to do with sexism and would get better if there was equality.
Men no longer expected to be the main providers, not expected to care for children, not expected to be tough or not be able to deal with emotions, no longer expected not to cry, no longer expected to work long hours, not expected to be hapless at home or with the children, not be expected to have prestigious over caring professions, and so on.

For it to become equalitanism, then men need to join the movement.

They've been told they must be a feminist because they are a women ("these are not two distinct groups")

But some women are feminists so no matter how few you think they are they are still not two distinct groups. If we were to draw a Venn diagram we couldn't draw two separate circles, they would have to overlap.

@Lweji -

Most of the problems that men face have to do with sexism and would get better if there was equality.

Yes, but as the eloquent 2nd wave feminist said that isn't what modern / 3rd wave feminism is about.

Men need to join what movement? Male feminists are sidelines, told that they can never understand the plight of an underclass (women) and that they should shut up and listen).

Feminism was necessary when women were truly second class citizens in they eyes of the law and the government as well as society. Now that we have overtaken men in some areas but still behind in others, feminism is not what we need. We need egalitarianism which recognises we have inequality but that both sexes need support in different areas.

Why are you a feminist instead of an egalitarian?

I hate to keep harping back to the same stats, but equality of the sexes is supported by an overwhelming majority of men and women yet feminism isn't. Why do you think that might be?

@jellyfrizz

Venn diagrams and set theory are areas I do understand (and am correct in) as opposed to opinionated and perhaps wrong!

The poster said that if you are a woman you must be a feminist ie. the set of women and the set of feminists are entirely equal. This is clearly untrue and according to every survey recently, the sets of feminist and woman have insignificant amounts of overlap (9%).

"I answered at length with what issues I think men (although mostly applicable to boys) face. Education, ironic misandry, 3rd wave feminism, non-existent male-spaces."

Did you? I must have missed it. Can you point me to your post?

"both sexes need support in different areas"

Could you give some "specific" examples of areas where you think men need support?

STFU Sat 08-Apr-17 13:32:25

I am slightly tipsy and jetlagged to hell, but how can you quote the areas in one post and then ask for examples in the next?

The poster said that if you are a woman you must be a feminist

Nope. You even quoted what they said - "these are not two distinct groups". You go on to agree rhat there is an overlap?! Which means no two distinct groups.

According to many , probably the majority of the regular posters on FWR men can only at best be feminist allies but can't be feminists.

If the circle of feminists overlaps with the circle of women what is in the part of the feminist circle which is outside the overlap?

I thought you meant you had actually posted something substantive, not just "women have it made and are horrible"

I think you'll find that others have addressed all the points you made in that post. If there's anything specific you'd like m to comment on, I would be happy to. Can't see the point of rehashing other people's posts.

We need egalitarianism which recognises we have inequality but that both sexes need support in different areas.

It's true that men can not understand what it feels to be in a woman's position, but men can still advocate for truly equal opportunities and rights.
I don't think men have been sidelined, unless they go and tell a group of women that sexism doesn't exist. :)

Why are you a feminist instead of an egalitarian?

I'm both, because for me they are the same.

Definition of feminism
1
: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2
: organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

Point 2 because for the most part (and I can't really think of an example of the reverse, actually) women have had and still have less rights and opportunities.

@jellyfrizz

They said " if you are a woman you must be a feminist"

ie. not A ∪ B but A = B

The nice thing about this is simply my opinion proves this wrong. The 94% in the Fawcett Society's research are a bonus.

@BertrandRussell

You do realise that "robustly challenging" doesn't simply mean calling someone's post lacking substance.

Once more, in case you missed it, "Education, 'ironic' misandry, 3rd wave feminism, non-existent male-spaces" are some (or most) of the issues that I feel men face.

They have not been addressed.

You said that they are not feminists issues to solve which I suggested was a straw man arguement as no one has said they are. I said they are society's issues and that feminists yelling "MRA" whenever a male-centric issue is raised may well be part of the reason for the mass desertion of feminism.

You are yet to even suggest a reason for the difference between those who want equality for the sexes and those who want to be labelled a feminist. A poster said it was due to cowardice and fear to stick your head over the parapet but this is clearly not true as women who have stuck their head over the parapet (to continue the strange analogy) are now retreating. No one can sanely suggest that this is because misogyny is more dangerous than it was decades ago (no such thing as marital rape etc) so whilst you can keep dismissing arguments without addressing them, it does you no favours.

I doubt I have made anyone reading this thread change their mind but I don;t for a second think you have either.

How about, as part of your robust challenging, you counter-argue instead of simple dismissal riding on a tide of yes-women?

I can bold or underline my questions if it would help.

It is odd when a woman thinks women shouldn't have the same rights and opportunities as men.

@Lewji

Ignoring any confusion between rights and issues,

Education, mental health, erosion of male spaces, job opportunities (before pregnancy comes into play) and prison terms are areas where men have problems because of their sex.

As I have said and keep on saying but am yet to be answered, your dictionary definition of feminism clearly doesn't tie in with 93% of UK women's. Why do you think that is?

your dictionary definition of feminism clearly doesn't tie in with 93% of UK women's. Why do you think that is?

It's not "my" definition, though, is it?

Yes, why does that happen? Perhaps because feminism has been put down by fearful males?
What do you suggest?

It is odd when a woman thinks women shouldn't have the same rights and opportunities as men

Who has said that? I agree with that position . I would not call myself a feminist as I am not interested in much of the baggage that comes with it- particularly the seemingly constant need to analyse everything as to whether it is a feminist act or not; or worse the determination by some feminists (NAFALT) to locate sexism where none exists.

STFU I really wish I was big enough to just let this go but

You said: I think a part of it is women are told they should be afraid by feminists.

NotCaryl said: "Women" and "feminists" are not discrete groups

NOT " if you are a woman you must be a feminist".

You even paraphrased it and put it in quotes later:

Your words: They've been told they must be a feminist because they are a women ("these are not two distinct groups").

How do you think education has been failing men?

And I'm not disagreeing entirely, but what is the issue there, apart from girls getting better grades?

Could it be that girls feel that they have to put more effort?
And why the disparities in STEM subjects, for example?
ngcproject.org/statistics

LassWiTheDelicateAir

If you agree that women and men should have the same rights and opportunities, but don't identify as feminist, what is feminism for you?
Not particular currents, but in general?

Could it be that girls feel that they have to put more effort?

Or that girls are socialised to be obedient?