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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

'There is no need for feminism in first world countries because females are no longer oppressed...'

458 replies

TinyRick · 07/04/2017 11:52

And apparently we have 'more rights than men now'.

One example of many - www.debate.org/opinions/women-are-not-oppressed-in-first-world-countries

I was going to post this on the Feminism boards but I have heard this from females too so thought I would post here to see views from those who do think this and agree with it.

I'm on a social media site and this comes up quite often. Yes, quite presumably from young males but I have also read about the 'Red Pill' and the 'MGTOW' movements which are mostly populated by the older males.

Aibu to think that Feminism in the first world is still needed and as relevant as ever? And amongst our 'luxuries' we are still the oppressed class?

OP posts:
Lweji · 09/04/2017 19:55

Lweji, your contention that women have achieved parity because of the Queen and a woman PM makes as much sense as claiming the election of Obama meant that African Americans no longer experience racism.

I was joking, clearly. See my other posts.

Lweji · 09/04/2017 19:59

I quite liked your explanation of why we still need feminism, though. :)

caffeinequick · 09/04/2017 19:59

First thing that came to my mind also @lionsleepstonight

larrygrylls · 09/04/2017 20:04

Bertrand,

Agree re learning styles. I don't know why boys who used to outperform girls now seriously underperform them. What I do find astounding is how little people seem to care, claiming that men can expect to earn more later, anyway.

Firstly I think educational outcome is an aim in itself and money does not compensate for being less well educated. Secondly I think this is backward looking. I suspect that when the current cohort of graduates reAch 50, there will inevitably be a large gender pay gap in the other direction. In an increasingly skilled-base workforce, why won't this happen?

My own guess as to boys' underperformance is an increasing width of knowledge in syllabi at the expense of depth, and adolescent boys just (on average) maturing later. However these are just guesses and I really struggle to dig up meaningful research.

Personally I think everyone should be judged on their own merits and offered equality of opportunity in all fields. Whether women should 'lean in' or all workplaces should be made more family-friendly, I am not sure. However, if robots can do more and more the latter seems better for everyone.

larrygrylls · 09/04/2017 20:10

Prawn,

In the Uk some very prestigious degree subjects are overwhelmingly dominated by women:

Medicine: 58/42
Veterinary Science:80/20
Law: 62/38

These are big gaps!

Source: The Guardian

Lweji · 09/04/2017 20:13

I suspect that when the current cohort of graduates reAch 50, there will inevitably be a large gender pay gap in the other direction. In an increasingly skilled-base workforce, why won't this happen?

I really don't know that it will. It's certainly possible, but men are still capable of leaving having children and families for later and I don't think (from my experience of being 40 now) that what drives women to stay at home, not do as many hours, or towards less demanding jobs, is going to change much in the next 20 years. At least unless something changes fundamentally.

And I do think that if pressure is not maintained, feminist conquests can be lost very quickly. There may be laws, but we also need people willing to apply them.

Lweji · 09/04/2017 20:23

Larry, it will be interesting to see if those gaps are still maintained as those graduates move along their careers in the next 20 years. What will the ratio be for law partners, for example? Or Consultants?

"Gerada says that, despite the increase in women in the profession, she has not seen a significant increase in women being appointed to senior roles. “I’m always struck by how it’s still men in the higher echelons of power. It has changed in some places like in general practice, and a lot of the presidents [of medical royal colleges] are now women, but I haven’t seen it change in my lifetime, not in the higher [echelons].”

There are now five female presidents of royal colleges, including orthopaedic surgeon Clare Marx, who became the first female president of the Royal College of Surgeons in July. The current chief medical officer for England is also a woman, and when Sally Davies took up the role in 2010 she was the first woman to have been appointed to the position.

But women are still in the minority among senior medical figures, a situation that some believe is unlikely to change without concerted action from within the profession."

"Although women are well represented in medicine, recent research has highlighted the lack of women in academic medicine. Jane Dacre says: “I think one of the big areas where there continue to be problems is academia. This was shown up in the latest Medical Schools Council work. I think it varies between 11% and 15% of senior clinical academics who are women, so clinical professors. Some of it is similar to the issues around there being fewer women choosing to go into surgery.”"

careers.bmj.com/careers/advice/Feminisation_or_equality%3F_The_issues_now_facing_women_in_medicine

And, btw, other prestigious fields are overwhelmingly dominated by men:
engineering and technology (85%), computer science (82%), and architecture and planning (72%),

It's disingenuous to only show a few fields where women dominate.

larrygrylls · 09/04/2017 20:28

Lweji,

The first part of your post is, again, backward looking. The graduates who are now senior consultants graduated in excess of 20 years ago, when ratios were very different.

Agree re the second part of your post and girls do need encouragement still to pursue stem subjects.

Lweji · 09/04/2017 20:32

I understood that first part to mean that even for the same generations, and supposed change in attitudes(!), there hasn't been an increase in the top jobs that has matched the graduate ratio for the same generation.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 09/04/2017 21:12

Porn is now everywhere

  • Prostitution has grown, much more women are in prostitution, and many more men buy women*
  • Domestic violence is still a massive issue*

I agree these are concerns. Given however there women who call themselves feminists who support the "sex industry" and given, the view of other feminists that men can't be feminists, I see opposing the attempts to legitimise "the sex industry" as an issue for anyone who thinks porn and prostitution is degrading, debasing and damaging to human dignity regardless of the slogan on their t- shirt.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 09/04/2017 21:29

Sorry, Lweji, I should've realised you were joking. I was cooking something complicated and got distracted. The meal came out beautifully, so that's good. Grin

Willyoujustbequiet · 09/04/2017 21:39

I did a quick straw poll on my fb today and 54 out of 61 responses identified themselves as a feminist. Normal cross section of society.

I was particularly encouraged by the number of men who responded postively.

My experience therefore is totally at odds with some figures that have been quoted on here.

Quite heartening in all honesty.

BertrandRussell · 09/04/2017 22:03

What I find depressing (as soneone significantly older than most, if not all, other people on here , is, actually, how little progress has been made.20 something years ago, I was a very senior Civil Servant- one of the few women at my level. The party line then was that there were plenty of women at the bottom of the ladder, and we just had to wait for them to jump through the hoops and get to the top. The same thing is being said now.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 09/04/2017 22:17

On the other hand I see a considerable difference in my field since I was a trainee in 1982. The particular sector I am in was very male dominated. There were very few female assistants and probably no women at partner level.Within my own firm when I joined in this particular niche area had 5 partners , 1 of whom was a woman. We still have 5 partners, 1 of whom is a man.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 09/04/2017 22:31

Lass, I know some feminists don't think men can be feminists, but I disagree. Men can be feminists but can never lead or set priorities. It's exactly like white people who campaign against racism: we can support the movement but no white person can lead it. Indeed any white person who tried would, by doing so, reveal their bad faith.

The male feminists I have known never mention theory or tell women what to do. They demonstrate their commitment by doing things. Those feminists who most reject the idea of male feminists have often had experience of men who know all the right things to say but whose behaviour shows they mean none of it. I feel the same about men like that, though fortunately I haven't known any.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 09/04/2017 23:14

Lass, I know some feminists don't think men can be feminists, but I disagree. Men can be feminists but can never lead or set priorities

I don't particularly care one way or another but it has been debated several times on FWR where the majority view is generally that they cannot.

There are feminists who support the "sex industry". I doubt very much my husband calls himself a feminist but he does think men who use prostitutes are scum so I know whose opinion I value and whose I don't.

corythatwas · 09/04/2017 23:34

The number of women in a certain profession doesn't say that much in itself. In my faculty iirc women outnumber men. But at the top, the governing bodies and top jobs are very heavily male-dominated. At the meeting where women were described as one of several minority groups, the discussion was provoked by the observation that though there were at least as many women present in the room, the panel leading the meeting was exclusively made up of men.

TheOldLandmark · 10/04/2017 01:07

When I was a child, I was a child. No social media, no Internet, played outside with my peers for hours on end.

When I was a pre-teen I was a child. Still no social media or Internet. I was flashed at by a man who had walked past a friend and I (we both felt uncomfortable enough about his demeanour to comment to each other about this) before positioning himself ahead of us and dropping his dungarees to expose his penis - my friend and I ran to a nearby shop to be told laughingly by a male customer that if we could raise our knees to a certain height (i.e high enough to knee someone in the balls) we shouldn't be worried.

When I was a teenager I read both 'The Joy of Sex' and 'Our Bodies Ourselves'. I felt I was the equal of anyone, male or female.

When I was 19, a male interviewer for a job insisted that I MUST have a boyfriend/was in a relationship. He repeated his assertion several times, and so I didn't get the opportunity to go and work in the USA on his observation. I didn't have a boyfriend.

At 21, I cheerfully said ' I didn't burn my bra' when I happily held a door open for a man. I still felt 'equal'.

At 25, a younger woman said to me '25 and no kids, what's wrong with you?' I was taken aback but happy with the choices I had made to date. I still felt equal.

At 26 I was stalked and sexually harassed by a colleague for a year - my (female) boss hid this and didn't report it, as I had begged her, to take my complaint higher up. The fact that my harasser was female seemed to stun everyone involved into inaction - to this day, the 'no smoke without fire' comment still hurts me.

At 27, after 9 years working in a very challenging field, I interviewed for a promoted post. The male interviewer said 'but you'll be going off to have children soon'. I didn't get the job.

At 35 I had my first child. Married, if that matters, and planned. Working full-time pre- and post mat leave. Had racked up six years without a single day sick leave/absence in this job.

At 37 I had my second child. Worked part-time after this mat leave. My job wasn't exactly 9-5 but had to be while my partner worked away from home and raced up his career ladder. I had to make up any missed working hours due to children's illnesses etc. from time to time when H was at home. Upon seeing 'TOL is working late AGAIN' text from my DH to a family member of his was my first inkling that I wasn't quite so equal as I thought I was.

At 42, after a decade of children, work, and home, I asked my abusive H to leave. Five years later I am still embroiled in Court arguments about contact - none of which I instigated, nor prevented H from spending whatever time he asked for with our children. The fact that they can spend seven days with him and don't wash/shower/bathe at all is the very least of my concerns while they are in his 'care' to be honest. The (male) Judge who backs my abusive ex to the hilt, costing me two jobs to date due to having to attend Court (six times in eight weeks most recently) will be retired or dead when the emotional cost of this fuckwittery comes home to roost for 'our' children - and there's me with professional qualifications and CPD that outrank his Judiciary gravitas and 'wisdom' in such matters.

At 44, my closest friend's Husband came on to me - we had a decade of friendship behind us. Nothing was ever said (I refused his sleazy advances) and our friendship drifted away - they're still together. I'm isolated and lack any support at all now - all because her H wanted to ejaculate.

Did I mention the menopause?...That came as a whole other shock to the system. I have become invisible.

When people campaign for men only spaces, I will be there. When people campaign for refuges for men, I will be there. When people speak of educational disparities for boys, I will be there. But don't tell me that feminism, in any form, is dead and not warranted in every aspect of life - whether that be first or third world.

I thought I was equal...how fucking wrong I was.

DeleteOrDecay · 10/04/2017 01:52

Excellent post Landmark

mummytime · 10/04/2017 07:21

The ratios of women training in top fields is encouraging. However at least two things prevent women continuing to top jobs. The first is children - very few women who I know who are going for QC or similar actually have children. If they do they must have amazing child care - not just 8-6, but probably more than one Nanny. I have only known two couples where the Husband took the "slow stream" with his career to enable his wifes, and in one they broke up due to affairs (both sides).
The second which affects Men as much as Women is that work life balance has got worse over the years. The idea of working 9 to 5 now seems like a bit of a dream for a lot of people I know. This means that in a couple raising children, it is very very hard to juggle two careers and just basic child care.

STFU · 10/04/2017 13:37

I'm so tempted @BertrandRussell but it's very 'patriarchy' this and 'gender stereotypes' that.

"I do think men feel more entitled to opt out of life than women"

Fuck me. Men who kill themselves are having their 'entitlement' questioned and you asked me on this thread what issues men face?People like that poster for a start! (I know it wasn't you)

I've asked that poster if she thinks her views are typical of a feminist. It'll be interesting to see what she says but I don't have the time or energy for another big debate...

BertrandRussell · 10/04/2017 14:04

I'm so tempted @BertrandRussell but it's very 'patriarchy' this and 'gender stereotypes' that.
So go and put your point across!

"I do think men feel more entitled to opt out of life than women"

Fuck me. Men who kill themselves are having their 'entitlement' questioned and you asked me on this thread what issues men face?People like that poster for a start! (I know it wasn't you)
You are completely, and deliberately, misrepresenting that poster
..

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 10/04/2017 14:08

Ace post, Landmark. I could write a similar timeline if I could recall the precise year in which each event happened. The biggest - an industrial tribunal - was in 1995, but I'm not sure about some of the rest. My memory is dreadful.

STFU · 10/04/2017 14:34

No I'm not Bertrand.