'There is no need for feminism in first world countries because females are no longer oppressed...'

[TinyRick]

And apparently we have 'more rights than men now'.

One example of many - www.debate.org/opinions/women-are-not-oppressed-in-first-world-countries

I was going to post this on the Feminism boards but I have heard this from females too so thought I would post here to see views from those who do think this and agree with it.

I'm on a social media site and this comes up quite often. Yes, quite presumably from young males but I have also read about the 'Red Pill' and the 'MGTOW' movements which are mostly populated by the older males.

Aibu to think that Feminism in the first world is still needed and as relevant as ever? And amongst our 'luxuries' we are still the oppressed class?

Also, this
It is odd when a woman thinks women shouldn't have the same rights and opportunities as men

was in relation to the discussion of whether if you are a woman you should or shouldn't be a feminist.

What is feminism these days, particularly for people who don't see themselves as feminists? The actual definition hasn't changed.

So, you think the reason 93% of women do not identify as feminists yet agree with equality of the sexes is due to to being put down by fearful males? Really?

How about 19% of women seeing feminist as an insult?

If you really think this is all due to men then I feel sad for the the future of feminism. A little like Labour, it doesn't matter if you're wrong or right, if a few nutcases become the vocal minority, you need to change your name (to New Labour) or accept that what you think uo stand for and what the majority think you stand for are different things. Complaining that everyone else is wrong will not win you popular support and it's popular support which is needed.

I would suggest that men do not have the power to make only 7% of women want to identify as feminists (far fewer than when I was young). I think that it is due to toxic feminists ruining it for the rest of you and lots of you have swallowed this toxin. Agreeing with such extreme (to 2nd wave) ideas like the patriarchy and ironic masculinity. 2nd wave feminists achieved so much, riding on the coat tails of 1st wave feminists. Modern feminists are fucking it all up and are blind to believing it can be anyone's fault than men's.

So, you think the reason 93% of women do not identify as feminists yet agree with equality of the sexes is due to to being put down by fearful males? Really?

I suggested that, in part, it could be due to men putting down feminism (not putting down women).

How about 19% of women seeing feminist as an insult?
Surely that justifies my hypothesis above. :)

I'm sure there are also many vocal feminists that put people off their brand of feminism. Just as I find some left-wing or right-wing people distasteful, even dangerous, and others reasonable.

Being put off by some people shouldn't put people off ideologies. Yet, the whole ideology is being put down. By who?

Modern feminists are fucking it all up and are blind to believing it can be anyone's fault than men's.

So, what do you think modern feminists should do?

I feel sad for the the future of feminism.

Oh, that kind of contradicts everything else you've posted STFU.

Interesting analysis

www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/column-why-millennial-women-dont-want-to-call-themselves-feminists/

Why millennial women don’t want to call themselves feminists

that kind of contradicts everything else you've posted STFU

Yes, I was going to ask if, after all, we need feminism or not.

I agree that "feminism" is a somewhat unfortunate term these days, as it started from the starting point of women having less rights than men, and it makes it sound like an exclusive female aim.
It makes sense historically, but things are not yet so equal that it should be abandoned.

@Lewji

I suggested that, in part...

What do you think is the other part?

Surely that justifies my hypothesis above

You think men are much more powerful than I do. I think it's failing us (women) to keep saying that this is all down to men. I made the argument earlier but it's like Corbyn keeping blaming the Tories (being re-elected) rather than looking inward a little.

Being put off by some people shouldn't put people off ideologies.

But it does. The vocal minority can ruin it. The majority can take over an ideology and turn it in to something it was never intended to be.

So, what do you think modern feminists should do?

Re-brand as egalitarians. It seems to fit both earlier feminism as well as what the vast mjorty of people (both sexes) believe in. It seems to me to be a sort of arrogance that people will cling on to feminism despite it being seen as a negative label.

Why would you stay as a feminist and not an egalitatian, @lewji?

"@jellyfrizz

They said " if you are a woman you must be a feminist"

ie. not A ∪ B but A = B
Once more, in case you missed it, "Education, 'ironic' misandry, 3rd wave feminism, non-existent male-spaces" are some (or most) of the issues that I feel men face.
I am afraid I am going to have to ask more questions. What do you think needs to be changed about education to help boys? I'm involved in a literacy scheme that specifically targets boys at our school because there is an obvious discrepancy between boys and girls attainment. Is that the sort of thing you mean?

Not sure at ironic mysandry means or the specific relevance of 3rd was feminism is

Male only spaces-you talked about Scouts and Guides and inaddresses the point you made-did I miss something else?

They have not been addressed.

You said that they are not feminists issues to solve which I suggested was a straw man arguement as no one has said they are. I said they are society's issues and that feminists yelling "MRA" whenever a male-centric issue is raised may well be part of the reason for the mass desertion of feminism.

*No, I didn't. I said that male mental health issues are not feminist issues. Men need to step up on this and address the problem. You might want to start a specific thread on what can be done. I'd be happy to contribute.

I for one, take as I find. And I can usually spot an MRA at a million paces. If your think "feminism" needs rebranding, then MRA I'm not sure what MRA need!

You are yet to even suggest a reason for the difference between those who want equality for the sexes and those who want to be labelled a feminist. A poster said it was due to cowardice and fear to stick your head over the parapet but this is clearly not true as women who have stuck their head over the parapet (to continue the strange analogy) are now retreating. No one can sanely suggest that this is because misogyny is more dangerous than it was decades ago (no such thing as marital rape etc) so whilst you can keep dismissing arguments without addressing them, it does you no favours.

Thinking about this, I don't think I really care. Why is so important to you? I have no idea why people think the way they do. Lots of people seem to be doing good feminist work without calling themselves feminist. It's a shame, but so long as the work gets done. If you want to know, why not ask them? I will live and die a feminist, so I think I shouldn't be your go to woman on this one.

How about, as part of your robust challenging, you counter-argue instead of simple dismissal riding on a tide of yes-women?

I like the idea of a tide of yes-women! But I am pretty sure that whatever I say, you will accuse me of not counter-arguing. It's in the handbook isn't it? (Taps side of nose, smiles knowingly)

.

Sorry-crap bolding. Hope you can get it.

I feel sad for the the future of feminism.

I should have added 'in its present form'.

I have said that there are areas where women need help and different areas where men need help.

Currently, feminism (in its modern interpretation) is the worst possible answer to male and female issues.

I'll quote what I wrote

Yes, why does that happen? Perhaps because feminism has been put down by fearful males?
What do you suggest?

I gave one possibility, and one reason. I asked you (STFU) for other hypotheses. There doesn't need to be just one cause. Surely the backlash from men and male supremacy activists is also part of the problem.

STFU, I think maybe we're all not so far away ideologically on this issue. I'm not a third waver but I'd still call myself a feminist and believe there is still a need for it.

Currently, feminism (in its modern interpretation) is the worst possible answer to male and female issues.

What is the modern interpretation? Is there only one?

You think men are much more powerful than I do.

Being put off by some people shouldn't put people off ideologies. But it does. The vocal minority can ruin it

So, you think a vocal minority of men is much less powerful than a vocal minority of women?
Or even a vocal majority of men saying that there's no sexism is not sufficiently powerful?

@bertrand

Sorry if my answers are becoming shorter. It's a combination of jetlag, tipsiness becoming a need to squint at the screen and your facade of politeness with very smug and condescending undertones.

What do you think needs to be changed about education to help boys?

I spend hours in my day job talking about this. You say you are part of a literacy scheme: you must surely be aware of the answers or you wouldn't be partaking. This isn't worth answering.

Men need to step up on this and address the problem. You might want to start a specific thread on what can be done. I'd be happy to contribute.

They are, despite the shouts of MRA. I won't bother beginning a thread as a) threads on an anonymous chat forum are nothing but an outlet for frustrated emotions b) it would be called out for being a trolling thread*

If your think "feminism" needs rebranding, then MRA I'm not sure what MRA need!

Have you been at the red wine too?

Why is so important to you?

I was born in 1960 when things were truly unequal. In my time, women have gained equality of opportunity thanks to women of my era (not especially me) fighting against injustice. Making personal sacrifice and enduring the consequences of standing up for 50% of the population.

It's a shame, but so long as the work gets done. If you want to know, why not ask them?

Ask 93% of women in the UK? It's easier to ask a specific person on a discussion board.

I think it goes beyond 'a shame' and want to know why the "movement" is being abandoned by such a huge number of men and women. Suggesting 'it's a shame' is underestimating the damage it is doing.

But I am pretty sure that whatever I say, you will accuse me of not counter-arguing. It's in the handbook isn't it?

Well, that was a boring way of avoiding giving an opinion. I thought you'd like the phrase 'yes-women' though. You see, believe it or not, I have encountered sexism in my life and one of the first major problems I encountered was being told I was hiring "yes-women" in the lab and to look to employ more men. At the time, M/F in STEM was around 90%.

*how about, I do so, I'll PM you when I do and we'll watch to see how long it takes before it's called a trolling thread etc?

" different areas where men need help.

Specifically what areas and specifically what help?

I agree op.
The big fights were won long ago.
Not even sure what feminists do these days?

I was born in 1960 when things were truly unequal.

Surely, as a baby and young child, you didn't really notice it.

And are they now falsely unequal, or have we reached equality?

What do you think needs to be changed about education to help boys?

I spend hours in my day job talking about this. You say you are part of a literacy scheme: you must surely be aware of the answers or you wouldn't be partaking. This isn't worth answering.

Always worth answering for those who are not part of literacy schemes. :)
And it was asked your opinion on this, not a general opinion or official policy.

Not even sure what feminists do these days?

Tea parties and men slagging, I imagine.

I can't imagine that they'be campaigning for equal presence at positions of power, for example. The UK already has a female PM and a female Queen, so all their work is done.

"I spend hours in my day job talking about this. You say you are part of a literacy scheme: you must surely be aware of the answers or you wouldn't be partaking. This isn't worth answering."

I find this a very odd attitude. I am part of a remedial scheme. I was asking what you think needs to be done so that such schemes are no longer needed. I have no idea why so many boys are trailing behind girls in literacy. If you know, why not share?

@Lwejj

one more post, whilst the wine's finished (lovely 2015 Rioja) before I crash...

I stayed at Uni from '78 until the mid-90s. The difference between the mid-90s and now is astounding. In the last decade or two, I think equality has been reached on so many levels that it has, for the most part, achieved its aims.

re. your second point: it goes against my better judgement to answer this whilst not at 100% but, schools need to:

• be positive about masculinity

• not be shouted down for acknowledging learning styles (VARK) and that boys and girls typically occupy one end with boys at another.

• schools working towards test. Boys typically learn through movement and experimental learning and develop at a later stage whereas grls, when assessed in KS2, will outperform boys.

• Coursework / extended essay assessment favour girls as opposed to high-pressure single exams

• the structure of the school day with fewer, longer rest periods suits girls more whereas several, shorter breaks are liely to suit boys more

Since 1997 there has been a gender gap in university enrolments. I think that the fact this has take 2 decades to address is due to oppressive 3rd wave feminism.

I am in my 50s, I don't think for a minute the work of feminists is done, and in some ways, things have got worse.

• There are stricter acceptable roles and clothes for young girls and boys now, than when I was growing up
• Porn is now everywhere
• Prostitution has grown, much more women are in prostitution, and many more men buy women
• Domestic violence is still a massive issue

I think equality has been reached on so many levels that it has, for the most part, achieved its aims.

In some areas, I'll agree, but not yet in many key areas. It's the last legs that are the most difficult and we can easily go back and fast (see US right now). In that sense, whereas we may need to go every week on marches, feminism (or whatever you want to call the movement for equality of rights and opportunities for men and women) is still necessary.

Thanks for the list of what should be done, in your opinion, in education in relation to boys.
I don't think it's only for boys, though. Some aspects are valid for some (even many) girls as well as for boys, and vice-versa. It's not my area, but I wonder how much the differences do come from different expectations while growing up, though.
I do think that we shouldn't have one style of education and one form of assessment. Various methods should have similar weight.
Equal opportunities and rights. :)

Sorry, I meant to write

...whereas we may NOT need to go every week on marches... (although that could be disputed )

I thought the learning styles thing had been largely discredited. And there will be no more course work from this year.

Not sure what being positive about masculinity means. Being positive about people is good.

A parliamentary report issued for International Women's Day 2015 found, among other things, that roughly a quarter of MPs and judges and 21% of FTSE 100 company directors are women.

Lweji, your contention that women have achieved parity because of the Queen and a woman PM makes as much sense as claiming the election of Obama meant that African Americans no longer experience racism.

People make this sort of mistake because they look only at individuals: I don't perceive inequality in my own circle therefore it's not happening.

There are wealthy privileged African Americans and high achieving women who become judges. This should not blind you to the fact that if you look at all women as a class they suffer inequality, whether it's reaching the top, unequal pay, fewer opportunities or a host of other parameters. Women, even where progress has been made, are disadvantaged in small ways and in large. They are far less likely to achieve power. Men still dominate in all the top echelons, regardless of the few females who buck the trend.

It is for this reason that feminism is still important. There are some areas in which men and boys are at a disadvantage but it is men, who hold 75% of the power, who are better placed to address these issues, not feminists, who have enough to do focusing on the obstacles faced by women in so many spheres of life.

I care about boys. I have two DS. But my feminism is not about males.