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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU re Karen Matthews after watching the programme tonight>

193 replies

tiptoeingpixie · 06/04/2017 23:14

Before I say anything, I absolutely think what she did was disgusting, abhorrent and alien to me as a mother how she could do what she did.

After watching programme tonight I've changed my mine in that no, she wasn't evil like some have claimed, she was someone with low intellect, numerous children by various fathers, the stereotype benefit mother that the press love to villi file.

Interested in what other's who saw the programme thought x

OP posts:
SaorAlbaGuBrath · 07/04/2017 10:01

I fully agree with PP saying there is absolutely such a thing as evil. If there isn't, why are there paedophiles? Mass murderers, sexual sadists, genocide, rape and a whole list of truly awful crimes. Is Assad not evil? Or ISIS? Are they good people?

ZilphasHatpin · 07/04/2017 10:02

Otherwise Hitler was just a little misunderstood.

Don't be silly, that is not the alternative to "not evil" Hmm

splendide · 07/04/2017 10:03

Sorry U2, I didn't mean to suggest that someone with LD would be more likely to hurt someone deliberately. I think it's possible she didn't realise she was hurting Shannon.

It's not at all clear though.

It is also just fact that criminals (including violent criminals) are, as a group, less intelligent than non-offenders. That doesn't say anything about any particular individual.

ZilphasHatpin · 07/04/2017 10:03

WHy are people suggesting that the absence of evil means I'm saying these people are/were "good" people? Confused

WannaBe · 07/04/2017 10:05

Never ceases to amaze me how many child abuse apologists there are on MN. As long as it's a woman there must have been some underlying reason why it happened, because women just don't have the autonomy to be able to act like that. Except they do. Time and time and time again. Rose West, Myra Hindley, Vanessa George, Beverley Allett, Karen Matthews.

It's worth remembering that her boyfriend was a young teen when she first groomed him and he later became her boyfriend. If the genders had been reversed nobody would have been in any doubt of that.

yes, I do think we need to try to understand why these things happen, that being said to understand means to empathise, and I don't think that the majority of people want to empathise with the kind of woman who can drug her children and tie one up in someone else's house for weeks while she plays the victim for money. And presumably they were going to have to murder Shannan at. Some point if she hadn't been found by the police? It's not as if they could just set her free and say she'd come home is it? So I'd imagine the only reason why Shanan is still alive is because they weren't able to carry out their plan of killing her.

I don't think it really matters what kind of language we prescribe to someone like that. Evil, bad, twisted, it's all semantics really. Just as long as none of that wording is "victim."

AwaywiththePixies27 · 07/04/2017 10:07

Thankyou SaorAlbaGuBrath.

You articulated what I was trying to say perfectly.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 07/04/2017 10:08

But their actions are still what we all are capable of doing as we are all human

Ian Brady is no less of a human than either you or I his actions make him a very different person to that vast majority of us

But he was once an innocent little child as we all have been what happened to create the person he become is very complex but he wasn't born evil I don't believe people are

elodie2000 · 07/04/2017 10:08

The act was evil. Does that make her and her behaviour evil? Yes.

Look into the background of every serial killer and there is something that could be used to 'excuse' their behaviour. By some people.

AwaywiththePixies27 · 07/04/2017 10:09

Never ceases to amaze me how many child abuse apologists there are on MN. As long as it's a woman there must have been some underlying reason why it happened, because women just don't have the autonomy to be able to act like that. Except they do. Time and time and time again. Rose West, Myra Hindley, Vanessa George, Beverley Allett, Karen Matthews.

Never ceases to amaze me either. There was also that woman from the little teds nursery too weren't they who was also jailed? Bet she was simply led up the garden path too Hmm

ZilphasHatpin · 07/04/2017 10:12

I don't think that the majority of people want to empathise with the kind of woman who can drug her children and tie one up in someone else's house for weeks while she plays the victim for money.

I agree. It's a really hard thing to do and many of us won't ever do it or have to do it. We won't ever be In a position where we have an impact on the outcome of such a person or opportunity to intervene before they become the person who chooses to abuse. But there are professionals who will be involved with people like Karen Matthews before they get to that stage and with the right interventions these acts and the evens that lead to them can be prevented.

My objection to the word evil is that (imo) it removes the responsibility for the actions from the person and attributes it to some "other" force rather than placing the blame squarely on the person.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 07/04/2017 10:14

It is not to excuse their behaviour

It is trying to understand what leads to some people wanting to harm others enjoying it or simply not caring or being able to understand their actions can harm

Unless we want to put people in simple boxes not recognise that patterns of behaviour can be changed and punish those who have been punished from childhood

ZilphasHatpin · 07/04/2017 10:15

Exactly entusiasm

AwaywiththePixies27 · 07/04/2017 10:15

My objection to the word evil is that (imo) it removes the responsibility for the actions from the person and attributes it to some "other" force rather than placing the blame squarely on the person.

It doesn't really though does it? People don't say Hitler was led by Satan. They blame him. People don't say Ian Brady (think I've got his name right- the moors murderer) was led by Satan or some other evil source. They blame him. Regardless of any psychiatric reports.

ZilphasHatpin · 07/04/2017 10:18

I think people are misunderstanding what is meant by the suggestion we try and understand what lead to these behaviours. It doesn't mean we are saying "ah poor love was just misunderstood, lets give her a hug, and no jail time of course" it means let's work out what lead to it (or may have lead to it) so that whilst she is rotting in jail (which is exactly where KM should still be IMO) we are working on intervening in the lives of children and other adults who are exhibiting similar behaviour patterns or growing up in the same environments etc. It's nothing to do with excusing the perpetrator. Their actions are their own.

ZilphasHatpin · 07/04/2017 10:20

People don't say Hitler was led by Satan. They blame him.

No, they blame evil. "Hitler was evil" that was his excuse apparently.

Twingler · 07/04/2017 10:24

But use of the word 'evil' makes it sound as though it is just in him. It was always going to happen, couldn't be prevented because this mythical 'evil' was inside him. It's saying that whatever disgusting thought processes these people have in order to do these things could never be understood and maybe changed so this stuff could be prevented.

Saying that I don't believe evil exists doesn't mean I'm saying these people are good. It means that they are human, just really horrible humans, who behave in a way that disgusts other people and is wrong. But they're still human and it is still human behaviour. Which could hen hopefully be prevented. Some people use the word evil to just mean something disgusting and vile. It's just a word describing their actions. Others do mean it in a kind of magical way, which isn't helpful at all. Do you really think anybody is just born evil? I hope not. I'd like to think that hints could be changed. Not for the perpetrators but for the future victims.

AwaywiththePixies27 · 07/04/2017 10:27

No that's not what people are saying. There isn't always a reason behind it though is there? At least not a logical one.

What about the bloke that ran over everyone, killed about five people (update this morning the woman pulled from the river has died) and stabbed a police officer to death in broad daylight a few weeks back?

Describing an act as evil doesn't excuse the person of committing a horrendous act.

Confusicous · 07/04/2017 10:31

Isn't KM now a "born again" Christian?

I really hoped the program was going to cover her actual story she tells now and felt annoyed with it just being airtime for others

I wanted the answers to why she chose Shannon, why she drugged her and whether she's remorseful or thinks about what Shannon will think of her now

AwaywiththePixies27 · 07/04/2017 10:33

Yes confusicous she claims to be.

ZilphasHatpin · 07/04/2017 10:34

There isn't always a reason behind it though is there?

Yes there is

At least not a logical one.

Do you mean at least not one you know about/ that has been identified? Just because it hasn't been discovered doesnt mean there isn't a reason. Everything is a result of something. Usually the culmination of many things rather than one thing you can pinpoint.

What about the bloke that ran over everyone, killed about five people (update this morning the woman pulled from the river has died) and stabbed a police officer to death in broad daylight a few weeks back?

Do you think there was no reason for that? What do you think happened? He just lost control of the car and panicked? Confused

AwaywiththePixies27 · 07/04/2017 10:43

Do you think there was no reason for that? What do you think happened? He just lost control of the car and panicked?

No. I didn't say that. I said at least not a logical one. He thought he was doing it because he was fighting the good fight for ISIS. I.e not logical. Even if he'd survived I don't even think psychiatric reports would have found anything. He was quote simply. Brainwashed. Nothing else.

The thing I don't get about the KM thing. If you read the latest updates about her being a born again christian. She says she wants to meet her family to say sorry. In one paragraph. Then the other ten paragraphs are followed by how hard her life is now. I don't think she's as remorseful as she's making out.

AwaywiththePixies27 · 07/04/2017 10:44

*quite. Not quote. Excuse the typos.

ZilphasHatpin · 07/04/2017 10:49

I said at least not a logical one

He thought he was doing it because he was fighting the good fight for ISIS.

He was quote simply. Brainwashed. Nothing else.

That is a perfectly logical conclusion for someone who has been brainwashed to believe they are a soldier fighting for their cause. You ask anyone in the street what they expect would happen if someone was brainwashed to believe that they will tell you "they'll probably become a terrorist". Thats logical.

tabbymog · 07/04/2017 10:55

If 'evil' actually exists how would you define it? Is it someone who knows right from wrong deliberately doing something harmful to another sentient creature, and having no conscience about it? If so, that behaviour already has a name, sociopathic, or sometimes, psychopathic, behaviour.

Is 'evil' just shorthand for something we each instinctively understand in our own way to be very wrong and damaging to others, a descriptor that fills a need not otherwise Identifiable? If so, it's the same as religious belief which also has no intellectual or factual foundation for it, so arguing will never settle the point as it never has between people, and nations, of differing religious beliefs.

Re my previous post, I left my ex-husband long before he committed a really serious crime and was formally diagnosed as psychopathic (36 on the Hare PCL-R checklist) but had interviews with the forensic psychiatrist to put my experience of his behaviour with all the others' so he could finally be assessed as to whether he should go to prison or a secure hospital.

If behavioural scientists are right and sociopathic behaviour is due to abnormal brain chemistry or structure, it raises the possibility that sufferers could end up being treated and able to live a normal life, having a conscience like everyone else. How many women (they were mostly women) were burned at the stake because of behaviour that could have easily been attributable to eating mouldy bread - ergotamine poisoning causes hallucinations and other frightening behaviour. Women (mostly) now thought to be migraine sufferers were incarcerated in 'lunatic asylums' because of what was called dangerous behaviour when they couldn’t behave ‘normally’ during a migraine. It’s well known now what migraine is and it runs in families. Wasn’t T S Eliot’s first wife, Vivienne Haigh-Wood one of these victims, although she had gynae problems as well that could have affected her emotionally?

It also raises the possibility, though, that we might go back to an age where people are subjected to lobotomies and similar surgery, against their will, and all the horrors that accompanied that.

Maybe a future Karen Matthews might get a diagnosis and treatment that could prevent criminal behaviour, make her better able to cope with her own life, and give her children the better life they deserve.

Mylittlestsunshine · 07/04/2017 11:09

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.