AIBU re Karen Matthews after watching the programme tonight>

[tiptoeingpixie]

Before I say anything, I absolutely think what she did was disgusting, abhorrent and alien to me as a mother how she could do what she did.

After watching programme tonight I've changed my mine in that no, she wasn't evil like some have claimed, she was someone with low intellect, numerous children by various fathers, the stereotype benefit mother that the press love to villi file.

Interested in what other's who saw the programme thought x

""She is an adult with a learning disability""

She has learning difficulties, not disabilities.

"
There are murderers who have exceptionally low IQs. They don't get away with it just because they have the intelligence of a fruit fly."

They actually often do get more lenient treatment if their IQ is very low. It's a factor in many court cases.

The issue afaik with "evil" as a descriptor is that it has overly religious connotations - the idea that someone's soul is bad. It's not taking away from the awfulness of whatever they did, just refusing to see it as a demonic force

She has learning difficulties, not disabilities

Don't correct me.
If you do as much work with LDs as you say you do you will know that Learning Difficulties is not a term chosen by everyone to describe their disabilities as they feel it minimizes the challenges they bring.

My son has Learning Disabilities. He isn't dyslexic.

It's interesting the almost sympathy that KM gets, when really all that separates her and Tracey Connolly is a child's death and that was by sheer luck.

I don't think she is evil.

She has Ld plus something else, but who knows what that is. "Evil" isn't a medical diagnosis is it?

I feel that she didn't think through things, her thought process was something like "I'll give Shannon this drug to keep her quiet" end of thought process. No thought of consequences etc.
"X will take Shannon and keep her quiet" end of thought process.

The people who knew KM, taking part in the programme last night were convinced someone else planned this whole thing. KM has said she would never say who as she had been threatened.

I understand what you are saying MrsD, however now, from a services POV, the two are split and if a child has a wish-washy diagnosis, but needs, say Speach therapy 16+, they are reassessed to see were they fit.

As you know, a complex diagnosis is given and parts of the test can score 'an average', rather than the whole thing being 'low', if it's a Learning Difficulty.

Whereas a Learning Disability is different.

That doesn't mean that generally Learning difficulties impact any less on daily life.

Not all child murderers have low intelligence, Ian Bradey is a very clever, controlling and calculating individual, as is Roy Whiting and James Bulgers killers, and others of that ilk. To humanise them, is to normalise and excuse their behaviour. What they have done, goes beyond the realms of human behaviour. That is why people use the word evil, as this perfectly describes them and their actions.

I felt pretty sorry for her, watching the recent programme.

She was in a relationship with an abuser, she thought she'd found a way out. I think her very low intelligence is extremely relevant, I don't think she was capable of thinking the consequences through properly.

That isn't a universal situation Birds.
That may be something that your LA has introduced on a local level.
A child who is assessed has having learning issues that have a general impact i.e in all areas of their development will not be classed as having a learning difficulty.
They may be given a holding dx of Global Delay and assessed again when they are older. But unless they had dyspraxia, dyslexia, speech delay etc in isolation they would be dx with Learning Disability.

If they wish to use the term difficulty I would totally respect that and there was a move in the 90s to use that term rather than disability. That seems to have changed now, I suspect in response to cuts to services and benefits and the minimisation of the issues LDs bring.

Or perhaps in line with the 'ownership' of disability by those with physical conditions.

Op, are you a parent?

If you are, please imagine taking one of your dc, putting them in a strange man's house and tying her up. Drug her and leave here there for weeks. For money.

Imagine how scared your child would be. Imagine how vulnerable they would be. Imagine how much danger they could be in.

THIS is what Karen Matthews did to her own daughter. Yes, she is evil.

I know plenty of families who have lots of kids, on benefits or very low income and none of them, not one, would even consider something like this. They would fight tooth and nail for their children.

Which drug did she use on Shannon? Where did she get it? How did she calculate how much to use?

Why had she been drugging S for months?

But all those people are human

I don't use the word evil too tied up with religion and humans are far more complex than being placed in simple boxes of good/bad nice/evil

People make choices what drives them to make those choices is very complex and different in each case It is not an excuse but had they led different lives it is highly probable that many would have made different choices

Some enjoy the pain they inflict on others both their actual victims and the hurt and distress that is causes their families

Others are so wrapped up in their own feelings they just do not consider the harm they are doing to others and if others get hurt their attitude is often well I am too their feelings of pain, sadness etc is what drives them not the feeling to protect their children this is more along the lines of what I believe KM is and it is incredibly selfish and immature (striving off the often chaotic and the drama these situations often bring) and that leads to neglect and often allowing abuse to happen and turning a blind eye

She might have been easily led but she made choices and they were to benefit herself not her children di her ld make it easier for her to be led yes are they the only reason absolutely no

why did nobody at school notice the child was drugged?

Again buttery (and others) it depends what you mean when you say evil. To me (I was raised catholic which I think is relevant to this ) it has always meant a power the devil uses to make people do things they wouldn't do otherwise. I'm atheist and don't believe in any god, devil, sin etc. It's all human. If by evil you just mean really awful behaviour then fair enough.

How did she calculate how much to use?

That's assuming she did calculate it. She may have just guessed and hoped for the best. Bit of trial and error.

To humanise them, is to normalise and excuse their behaviour.

I disagree. We need to acknowledge their behaviours as human behaviours before we can start to work out what led to those behaviours if we have any hope of preventing them happening in other families/situations. We can't just write this stuff off as "evil". That's basically like saying "oh well he/she was always going to kill/abuse, nobody could have done anything" when the reality is that many controllable factors contribute to the decisions a person makes.

KM like most most (not all) neglectful/abusive parents has zilch empathy generally this is something learnt as an infant so she is unable to see things from the viewpoint of her children, to her , her children's irritating behaviour etc is seen as aimed at her or as deliberate naughtiness. She was unable to imagine her poor daughter's feelings and the harm she was doing. With no real perception of a "future" KM lived in the present and all her actions were predicated by short term gain/ pleasure with little understanding or regard for the long term consequences. Unfortunately such inadequate people are the ones most likely to have unplanned pregnancies and numerous children for whom they are totally incapable of being "good enough" parents.

Plenty of people have low intelligence. Not many of them abuse their children and stage a kidnap.

She has low intelligence, is easily lead maybe, but is also evil.

I didn't watch the programme and don't actually know much about the case. But I am inclined to agree that the word 'evil' is inaccurate. Somebody upthread said this is not human behaviour. It's committed by a human, so it is obviously human behaviour. Throughout all of history, people have been 'evil'. Many things that happened then would now not be ok, but that's just because of a change in society. Humans are more than capable of violence and murder. Most people just don't do it because they don't want to.

I don't think low intelligence is any excuse for treating your children like this. You can have low intelligence and love your children more than anything. I know a woman with LDs, she had a few children, social services involvement and they were eventually removed from her. She loves them, frequently talks about them and still sees them. She was unable to look after them properly, she just didn't know how. She struggles to understand basic things. She wouldn't have abused them because she loves them and didn't intentionally want to harm them!

And what's with the benefit bashing? Talk of beer, fags and sky tv? I lived on benefits for a few years and that wasn't my reality at all. A charity gave me furniture, clothes for me and my son were second hand, my tv and phone were ones people were getting rid of and offered me. No holidays, no nights out, struggles to pay gas bill in winter... The money covered the essentials and that was it. As it should be, really. I don't know how anybody could be living that kind of lifestyle with the amount you receive compared to bills. I received roughly £12000 a year. Rent was just over £6000 a year, leaving about £500 a month for everything else. Tight, but doable.

Totally disagree Euthu, their behaviour goes beyond the realms of normal human behaviour. Evil is not just used within a religious sense, but to describe someone or behaviours as being "Profoundly immoral and wicked"(Oxford English Dictionary) Which is exactly what Ian Bradey, Myra Hindley and others are.

She was in a relationship with an abuser, she thought she'd found a way out. I think her very low intelligence is extremely relevant, I don't think she was capable of thinking the consequences through properly.

Neither is my son with LD. However, he knows right from wrong. He has a conscience. He hurts when he knows other people are hurting. He knows it's wrong to hurt people. He wants to protect the people he loves.

He isn't good at thinking through consequences, but he isn't nasty, he wouldn't hurt anyone.

Using her low intelligence as an excuse for her behaviour is a bit of a kick in the teeth really. She has mild LD I believe? that is not relevant to her actions.

She did something quite clever for someone with such low intelligence.

No such thing as evil

Of course there is. Otherwise Hitler was just a little misunderstood.