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AIBU?

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Original poster

AIBU re Karen Matthews after watching the programme tonight>

193 replies

tiptoeingpixie · 06/04/2017 23:14

Before I say anything, I absolutely think what she did was disgusting, abhorrent and alien to me as a mother how she could do what she did.

After watching programme tonight I've changed my mine in that no, she wasn't evil like some have claimed, she was someone with low intellect, numerous children by various fathers, the stereotype benefit mother that the press love to villi file.

Interested in what other's who saw the programme thought x

OP posts:
VeryButchyRestingFace · 07/04/2017 07:12

Of course she's evil. Poor Shannon is trying to get on with her life and there's her mum all over the press trying to make a quick buck and trying to justify herself. Horrible, nasty piece of work.

Did you watch the programme??

Matthews didn't participate in it in any way. What exactly is she doing to be "all over the press" and trying "to make a quick buck/justify herself"? Confused

There was a great Karen Matthews shaped hole in that programme.

VeryButchyRestingFace · 07/04/2017 07:17

I don't think Karen is evil as I don't agree anyone is really.

I though it was interesting that the people who actually knew KM - as opposed to any rent-a-quote psychologists/criminologists/journalists - didn't view her as "evil".

And the rather obsessive friend was still very pissed at her, but described her as a "child in an adult's body" and didn't believe that "evil" was an accurate description.

WateryTart · 07/04/2017 07:20

She's a greedy cow who was stupid enough to think she'd get away with it.

I didn't watch the programme, it should never have been made. Poor Shannon having it all dragged up again by money grabbing exploitative film makes.

user838383 · 07/04/2017 07:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

wannabestressfree · 07/04/2017 07:23

I reserve any sympathy for Shannon and her siblings....

Underthemoonlight · 07/04/2017 07:26

I don't think intelligence needs to come into it look at the maddie case two parents highly intelligent made a poor judgement call and left their DC unattended ( although I agree there's definitely more to it).

As a parent we have a duty of care to our children. The Shannon Matthew case it is clear that not only was she held captive under poor conditions but she was drugged,scared and alone. That is not the actions of a caring mother but someone who put that child in that situation for financial again. You can dress it up her low intelligence but regardless of intelligence people know what's right and whats wrong. The legal age for criminal responsibility is 10. Another case of Jamie burglar murderers, those boys were 10/11 they weren't very intelligent but they knew right and wrong. We have a system in place, if a crime is committed and if they are deemed to have mental capacity they are punished accordingly. The only people I have sympathy for is Shannon and her siblings.

SaorAlbaGuBrath · 07/04/2017 07:27

You don't need to have intelligence to love your children more than anything or anyone else, you don't need to have intelligence to know that shovelling sedatives into a 9 year old child to shut her up is very very wrong, and you don't need to have intelligence to know that you want to protect your children from harm.
KM may well be of low intelligence, but she chose to do those things, and she chose to put her child/ren through all that. Fair enough, you don't believe she's evil but she's hardly mother of the any year is she? Mick Donovan was assessed as being of very low intelligence, I don't see anyone shouting about him being manipulated. Or is it just that Karen is female?

Afreshstartplease · 07/04/2017 07:33

What KM did to that poor girl was horrific

Just imagine that, your own parent who should be loving and caring for you uses you to try and make a few quid. Buts you at risk.

Why Shannon out of all the kids? I bet Shannon wonders that. I hope she has a better life.

corythatwas · 07/04/2017 07:39

People who talk of her as easily led presumably think she was led by the men involved? But did they not have even lower IQ? And her boyfriend iirc was someone she had picked up when he was a young teen and she was an adult woman.

I sometimes wonder if we aren't still too stuck in a Victorian mindset of men as initiators and women as helpless followers.

x2boys · 07/04/2017 07:41

This wasent really the mothers story though was it, it was yet again the Julie Bushby show there have been one or two similar programmes to this recently and i think tv channels need to stop giving the women airtime .

HappyFlappy · 07/04/2017 07:43

No such thing as evil

Holocaust
Year Zero
Armenian Genocide
Holodomor

I could go on - and evil is still happening in the world. There are evil people (their motivations may be beyond what we can understand, and perhaps with their experiences you or I would be equally evil, but they exist) and there are evil deeds (look at Assad's latest offering).

I didn't see it (recorded to watch later), but I don't think "evil" applies to this woman - but stupid, selfish, and feckless - yes.

RitaMills · 07/04/2017 08:00

Her actions were evil, ok so she didn't murder Shannon but imaging how terrified that poor girl was for the duration of her confinement. Drugged and confused, threatened with god knows what if she didn't follow the rules, left with an unsavoury character who already had his kids taken away, who really could have done anything to her. I'm sure the fear she felt and the after effects are still very real to Shannon. Stupidity is no defence.

Applebite · 07/04/2017 08:07

Anyone who can doubt that human beings can be fucking evil has not seen the pics in the papers of the Syrian children choking in fucking nerve gas that some fucking cunt ordered to be dropped on a fucking village. Whoever ordered that is evil. So yes. Humans can be and sometimes are utterly evil IMO. Luckily they are in the minority, albeit sometimes it doesn't feel like it when you see the news these days.

As for Karen Matthews - I don't think evil is the word. I think she was selfish and disturbed and very greedy and persuaded probably by stories in the press as well as by her accomplice, and I think that what she did was revolting. But it doesn't tip into evil for me. i don't know anything about her background, but so often you read about people who've done terrible things and then you realise that their own childhood was properly fucked up and that they probably never had a chance Sad

morningconstitutional2017 · 07/04/2017 08:10

I saw the programme too though I missed the last ten minutes. This woman definitely suffered from low intellect, after all her friend said that she was like a child in an adult's body.

Where were Social Services in all this? If memory serves, two of her children had been taken away, possibly on a temporary basis but returned. It might have been a good idea if reliable long-term contraception had been offered - but maybe it was and it was refused. We aren't a police state after all and we can't force people to be sensible.

Shannon is being better looked after now and I believe Ms Matthews lost all her children. I assume some sort of 'after-care' is available for all of them. I hope that they'll be able to put it behind them and move on to a happier life.

MistressMerryWeather · 07/04/2017 08:13

To sit there day after day knowing where Shannon was and how terrified she must be (drugged and tied to a beam) goes beyond stupidity and selfishness.

To be able to carry on with that knowledge in your head about any child let alone your own is evil, IMO.

She didn't need a high or even average IQ to know that what she was doing was wrong and put Shannon in harms way. That's basic stuff.

She just didn't give a shit.

SuperMoonIsKeepingMeUpToo · 07/04/2017 08:13

Villi file? Grin That's a corker.

The word you're looking for is vilify.

Didn't see the programme but will look out for it.

mudddypudddles · 07/04/2017 08:16

There are plenty of unintelligent people who are lovely parents and also don't drug and hide their kids.

She is evil and twisted as well as unintelligent.

RainbowsAndUnicorn · 07/04/2017 08:22

The show should never have been produced more less aired for the sake of the children involved.

Having numerous children, not working etc is a choice. Nobody is forced into it and it doesn't give a person an excuse to do what they like like a get of out jail free card. Nor is low intelligence an excuse, that's just a cop out.

Nothing was stopping her being a good parent, she could have chosen to change her life at any point but chose not to. Not even for the sake of her children.

purplecoathanger · 07/04/2017 08:22

Like Mairead Philpott. Was she evil or just low intelligence?

I don't believe either situation has a straightforward answer.

Increasinglymiddleaged · 07/04/2017 08:28

I think that people like to pigeon hole people into being either 'good' or 'bad'. When the majority of us have differing amounts of good and bad in us.

So Karen Matthews I think has in some ways some good in her. But that doesn't stop what she did to poor Shannon being absolutely awful and I don't think low intellect is an excuse for that. It is perhaps an explanation about how it happened, but I don't believe that she didn't know it was abusive.

ShakingAndShocked · 07/04/2017 08:33

Well she had enough nouse and intelligence about her to perpetuate her story long enough [whilst that poor child must have been bloody terrifiedAngry] didn't she? So the 'low IQ/'stupid' as an out clause here doesn't quite cut it for me.

@UnderTheMoonlight 'I don't think intelligence needs to come into it look at the maddie case two parents highly intelligent made a poor judgement call and left their DC unattended ( although I agree there's definitely more to it).'

What does 'although I agree there's definitely more to it' mean - with whom are you 'agreeing' with and what are you saying? I genuinely do not understand your post at all Confused

TheFirstMrsDV · 07/04/2017 08:41

She isnt a child in an adults body.
She is an adult with a learning disability.

That may well mean she is emotionally immature but that doesn't make her a child.

People with LDs are not 'stupid'. People with mild LDs like KM are perfectly capable of knowing right from wrong. They can be easily led and make poor decisions because of their limited ability to predict the consequences of their actions. I.e. not thinking things through long term.

People with LD are like people without. They can have personality disorders, poor attachment, be selfish, be greedy and be unable to put the needs of their children before their own.

Personally I think that KM's LD can be acknowledged as it might explain some of the 'wtf was she thinking?' issues but it doesn't in anyway excuse what she did. Nor does it explain her cruelty and neglect towards her children.

Aeroflotgirl · 07/04/2017 08:42

Hindley and Brady human and evil beyond compare.

Birdsgottaf1y · 07/04/2017 08:46

OP, your opinion would set back the 'cause' for people with low intelligence (particularly Women/Mothers) to the days of institutions and asylums.

Yours are 18th century views. That's why a large percentage of people portrayed as people to be feared in horror etc films are presented as having low intellect and features which usually mean that there is a condition present.

You're actually taking things backwards.

LDs do not mean uncaring, a lack of empathy or a complete lack of understanding.

If that had been the case, SS would have had grounds for the removal of all her children, but they didn't.

I was a CP SW and I've had to finish work because of ill health. I'm currently doing voluntary work with Parents with LDs. It's been a hard battle to get the stigma lessened of being a Parent with LDs.

It's only lessened, not removed.

As for the other killers that you mention, there was a level of MH issues and personality disorders etc (to put it simply) in most of them.

I live on a mostly benefit HA estate in Liverpool. Unless drugs are involved, people are generally doing their best, that includes the 'multiple-fathers' Mothers.

You need to get the stereotypes out of your head and educate yourself on LDs/low intellect.

Aeroflotgirl · 07/04/2017 08:46

Even though KM has low intelligence, and issues, what she did went beyond the realms of what anyone would even think of doing. There are people who have LD, mental health issues, come from low income families, who make fantastic parents and would never dream of doing what she did.

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