To think his mother is toxic and want to do something about it? (longish story)

[SuziePink]

Apologies for the length of this.

DP (37, I'm 29) has AS and ADHD and lives with his DM and stepdad. Together for 2 years, found out I was pregnant in early Jan. When I told DP we were a bit shocked but after some discussions I told him I was not willing/able/whatever to have an abortion because I knew I would regret it. He seemed to accept this but was having problems so I said he needed to talk to his DM and stepdad. Next time I saw him he said he'd told them and they thought I should have an abortion... so much for being supportive.

Less than a week later his DM has phoned my parents, who she'd never met let alone had their phone number, and arranged to meet them to discuss 'concerns'. Then DP sends me message saying he is 'unable to function in a relationship' which is news to me after being in a happy one for 2 years. My parents then receive a letter from his DM cancelling the meeting and explaining that I should have an abortion because my child will have 'severe autism' despite there being absolutely no scientific backing for this as well as the fact my DP does not have severe autism. My parents still want to meet. During the meeting she is in full theatrics saying how dependent my DP is on her (she's made him that way, nothing to do with AS or ADHD), how he's like a 'little boy', that sometimes she wishes he'd 'never been born', how it's cruel to bring a disabled child into the world as well as saying if I have the child it will 'kill [her]' etc etc... Does not listen to what my parents or I have to say at all.

A couple of weeks later he agrees to meet me then sends me an email at the last minute cancelling. I go round there anyway. His DM tells me I bully and manipulate DP, physically tries to push me away from him despite knowing I'm pregnant and then calls 999. However, police are very sympathetic to me and tell DP basically to stop ignoring me and be a man. Me and DP have a good conversation and agree to meet a couple of days later. However, by that time DM has got to him and convinced him that there's no point speaking to me and he must have a friend present because I'm such a bully. Unsurprisingly, we get nowhere.

Since then (about 6 weeks ago) I've barely heard from him and not seen him. His DM gives him money so he doesn't need to work, makes appointments with his GP etc, and basically controls his life as well as deciding for him that he cannot cope in a relationship and that he's 'incapable' of being a father to our child. I think he'd make a lovely father whether we're in a relationship or not. I've tried to ask members of family who I know for help but she's got wind of this and told him to tell me to stop (I can tell when he's merely repeating what she's said). All I want, and I've told him and his DM and stepdad, is a father for my child and for them to know their family. I have not asked for money or anything else from them.

I've since read Susan Forward's Toxic parents and am convinced she's a controlling toxic parent. AIBU to think this and AIBU to want to do something about it before she completely ruins his life by severing ties with me and what will probably be his only child? Oh yeah... she's an accredited counsellor.

I should probably mention I've been signed off from work with stress from mid-Feb to end of this month and have been seeing a counsellor myself.

OP, you sound like you care about this man so much, that's lovely.
Let him know the door is open for him always and that you KNOW he will be a good dad (incase his mum has made him think otherwise).

Tell him he can come and see your baby whenever he wants, without that horrible woman. By the sounds of what you say your DP is a caring man and would make a lovely father. I imagine the love for his child when its born will grow and over time he will be able to pull away from her a little and build a bond with his child and be the dad you know he can be.

Unfortunately though OP, I don't think youll be able to continue a relationship with him. She seems like she wont let that happen now and you will have a baby to concentrate on without worrying about her.

@xStefx yes I think unfortunately having a relationship with him while he is still so under her thumb will be very difficult if not impossible. I'm much more keen to make sure we don't dip into acrimonious, permanent split territory which will make everything much more stressful and difficult than it needs to be. At the beginning of all this all I wanted was to talk about everything sensibly and to just see how everything goes rather than laying down ultimatums or making rash decisions but with DM's interference that all went out the window.

Hi Suzie. You & I have a lot in common inc my partner has asp and a controlling (narc) mother. My life is proof that it is entirely possible to live happily with an aspie partner. It wasn't instant though and we have certainly had our share of very tough times. I'm telling you this so you know that I get you and I'm on your side.

Here's the thing. Regardless of any health/life issues, life has taught me to judge people - everyone - on what they do, rather than what they say. The fact is, anyone can SAY they love you. But if they're not actually there with you, for you, by your side... it's just words.

I'm so sorry that you're in this position. Practically, there may be a few things you can do. Can you get some help for your partner? Can you report his mother to her governing body? Look into whether it will serve you long-term to name him on the birth certificate. Find someone in RL to talk to. Get some legal advice.

Other than that, I would take a step back to focus on your own well-being. He knows you're pregnant with his child. If he wants to be with you, he will be.

Good luck with everything!

@GoodDayToYou thank you. Yes I've contacted her governing body expressing my concerns but not heard back yet (only been a week or so). I've had some contact with a solicitor who is happy to speak to me about legal things and I'm sure she will be equally happy to talk to me about the birth certificate. The help for him is the sticking point, I'm not really sure who to contact. I've thought about writing to his doctor as I know her name and where the surgery is but that's as far as I've got. A mutual acquaintance who knows the situation and is unbiased has been in contact with him which I'm hopeful will be good for DP as he looks up to this man.

Well done, Suzie.
There are aspie support groups around which might be helpful too??
Take care of yourself.

I plan to send him weekly 'bumpdates' which he can read or not.
That would be playing straight into the hands of his mother playing the 'harassment' card to try and turn him/others against you. I wouldn't do this, you can't guilt him into being there. You can only hope he comes to the decision of his own accord.

It very much seems here that people are minimising this man's lack of ability to stand up to his mother based on his disability, and are making his mother entirely responsible for the actions he is/is not taking. The reality here is that he is a grown man, capable of making his own decisions in life. If he's not capable of making those decisions due to the control of someone else, then it would seem that his disabilities are far worse than are being portrayed here and he does actually need another's influence in his life. If however his disability is only mild, then he needs to be able to make his own decisions in life. If he can't do that, then he clearly does not have what it takes to be a partner and especially not a father.

I have little doubt that the mother here is toxic, however you cannot save him from her, only he can do that. I'm guessing that if he was only diagnosed last year his mother had it difficult when he was growing up, perhaps he had behavioural issues which she found difficult to handle, perhaps she is of the type who finds it difficult to accept that she has a disabled child. It's not PC to say it but such people do exist. My own mum really didn't want a child with a disability and has very strong opinions on people who continue pregnancies where disability is detected, her view being that it's unfair on everyone around that child, and she deliberately chose not to have more children after me just in case...

Bear in mind that autism and ADHD were unheard of until relatively recently, so as a child he would have been labelled naughty. If he was incapable of holding down a job (and let's be honest here, if he's lived away from home then he's made that choice for himself, and chosen not to work himself) then until very recently he has been labelled problematic and with issues, and given the diagnosis has only happened recently there will still be an element of having to come to terms with that diagnosis and also an element of having to rewrite history.

You need to face the fact that the relationship is over. If he wanted to be with you then he would be. If he's not capable of making that decision for himself and standing up to his mother then that is his choice, and that choice speaks volumes as to what he doesn't want. It's far more likely that if he can't stand up to his mother then he can't tell you that it's over either. Communication issues rarely are restricted to one person....

So you need to decide whether or not you really can go it alone with this baby. Bearing in mind that he would be entitled to access at some point in the future regardless of what your solicitor is saying now. And as you're not together there will be very little ability for you to control whether his mother is involved.

@RyanStartedTheFire it's hardly harassment if it's an email and he can ignore it. It is not my intention to guilt him into doing anything.

@WannaBe he never had behavioural issues as a child, never had temper tantrums and he finds it difficult to show negative emotions such as anger. He certainly wasn't a naughty child or anywhere near a handful. He's very placid and unassertive which is how she's managed to manipulate him so well. I made the decision months ago that I could not and would not have an abortion. His communication difficulties are different with his mother and me. He's able to say no to me and be honest whereas he's not able to do that with his mother. I know him well enough to know when something has come from him and when something has come from his mother, anything negative he has said or written to me in the last couple of months has been taken verbatim from things she has said. His mother has made him believe he cannot cope with relationships.

So if there were never any issues why the diagnosis?

@WannaBe I really believe the AS and ADHD are confounding the situation. The years of abuse, control, and manipulation from DM are far more of a factor than his disabilities which only increase his susceptibility, especially if she's now using those to keep him in his box so to speak.

The reality here is that he is a grown man, capable of making his own decisions in life my point is that she has taken away that ability.

@WannaBe he has some mild social difficulties and assertiveness issues. To be honest I have no idea why it was so important for him to have the diagnosis, I said to him at the time that if it was going to be helpful for him then that was good but I was worried it would be another reason not to do things and another way (in addition to the migraines) she would exert control... which is exactly what has now happened.

"my point is that she has taken away that ability." no she hasn't. His disability may have made it easier for her to manipulate him but ultimately the ability to decide for himself is his.

In life we are responsible for our own actions. If he is a competent adult then he is still responsible for the decisions in life he is making, whether to be involved with his child, in a relationship with you, etc. If he is unable to make those decisions then his competency as an adult is questionable and his mother likely has a point about the severity of his disability.

However it seems far more likely here that while he is being manipulated to an extent by his mother (who I am not disputing sounds like an awful woman,) he is making the choices he wants to make and is falling back on his mother as a get-out of taking responsibility for those decisions.

It seems you've been looking at him through rose-tinted glasses in the past few years. You said yourself that the mother's reactions came as a shock to you. Just as much as that is possible it's also likely that he's not the person you thought he was - esp as two years is a common place for cracks to start to show in a relationship.

Walk away from him now. No good will ever come of this relationship.

@WannaBe I really think you're underestimating this woman's ability to knock him down and prevent him from doing what he wants. She's manipulated a perfectly intelligent and independent man into supporting her and her son financially. She does not have a point about his disabilities, as I have said several times her abuse has had much more of an effect on him than the AS and ADHD. It is like having a friend with a violent partner who cannot see that what he is doing to her is wrong. The difference is that she will one day die (hopefully soon) and he will be on his own for the rest of his life because she has convinced him that he can't do relationships. There were no cracks in our relationship until she started interfering. I can pinpoint the day he told her (even though I'm technically unaware) because there was a significant change in his communication with me.

@WannaBe I really believe the AS and ADHD are confounding the situation. The years of abuse, control, and manipulation from DM are far more of a factor than his disabilities which only increase his susceptibility, especially if she's now using those to keep him in his box so to speak

"Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean that they're not out to get you!!"

In other words just because he has minor disabilities it does not mean his mother is not using this to her own advantage, and actually may have little to do with his disabilities at all. Just as my son with ADHD was capable of being naughty at school in ways that were not to do with his diagnosis. It takes someone who knows the individual well to recognise the difference between what is down to their ASD and what is just them. I can with my sons, most other people can't. None of us know this man, but some seem set on disagreeing with the one person who does know (and love) him, the OP. From what she says when he has been with her the real man he is could emerge, the man he could never be at home. And I understand that,

Suzie although my three sons are very different, have different needs and abilities within the label of ASD, there is one trait they share. And that is they take longer than most to make a decision, particularly a big decision that involves change. So although others may believe your DP has made his decsion (or should I say indecision), and because he remains at home all hope is lost, I don't. I think it is very likely that when the seriousness of the situation, and the prospect of being a father becomes more of a reality, he may well then find the courage to leap into action and change his life. At least I'm pretty sure it would work that way for my sons.

@bigmac4me it really means a lot to me that someone with experience of grown-up men with ASD is being supportive. I agree with you that DP is not very good at making decisions and I also doubt he has truly made up his mind, which is why the communication I have had from him has seemed conflicted and confused. I really hope that he'll be allowed enough space to make his own decision.

Suzie, to be honest I think he has made his decision but you don't want to accept it has came from him and are blaming his mum.

OP, fwiw I think your analyses of what's happening here are almost certainly correct. You said that she showed him little attention when he was young, preferring to do her own thing for herself. At some point she's decided that her thing is keeping him under her total control. None of us know what she's said or done to him when it's only him and her present, and she's conditioned him to bend to her will. To the point where based on what you've said about his earlier life, I'm even doubting the ASD/ADHD diagnosis. because of her control he may well show the emotions and behaviours of someone who is on the spectrum or has ADHD, but that is not the same as actually having them.

I think what's triggered all of this is that she was OK with allowing him to have a little fun with a 'girlfriend' when you didn't see much of each other and lived some distance apart. Because she saw far more of him she knew she could maintain overall control. However you're now pregnant. And he's the father. She's gone ape because that has completely changed the dynamic of your relationship to one where she feels she could lose him. So she's ramping up her controlling behaviour. Given what she's doing that you know about, God knows what she's doing and saying to him behind closed doors.

Like you OP, I think she's brainwashed him to the point where, although he would like to stand up for himself (and you and the baby) she will just make sure that she does whatever is necessary to crush that out of him.

I wish you luck OP. it comes through that you love him and would like to make this work. But I'm sorry to say that without getting him physically out of his mother's house, I don't know if you can.

@TheDevilMadeMeDoIt sadly I have to agree with you and some of my friends have expressed the same opinion about what she's doing behind closed doors. One of the things that has stuck with me is that at no point has DP or his stepdad been surprised at her behaviour, even when she assaulted me. As far as I understand she was far more focussed on her relationships with his 2 stepdads (current is the third) when he was a child and moved him around a lot. He went to at least 3 primary schools and 3 secondary schools, whether he has AS and ADHD or not that's difficult for any child.

@Nicknacky have you actually read everything I have said? I am not just blaming his mum. The woman is appalling.

Apart from weekly bump-dates (which I think is a really good idea btw) do you think there is there anything else that you can practically do?

I don't mean that to be inflammatory btw - I'm just trying to think if there is anything that can be done

So many things to say Suzie...

I was trying to put myself into your DP's mind (a bit presumptious of me I know). He probably has his mother on at him 24/7 and you must be desperate to get your voice heard by him, after all if you don't his mother will be the only voice he hears. No doubt after any contact with you, she goes on even harder - as you have said she will resort to any lie to "prove" to him she is right. Then you probably feel you need to put your truth. I know the ASD brain would want to explode. Yet if you, for his sake, stay quiet in order to lessen the pressure he is under, then his mother has won, because it seems she will never shut up, and unlike you is thinking of her own needs rather than her sons. Although there is no doubt your DP has capacity, that should mean that he has to right to make his own mistakes too, just as the rest of us do. But he is not allowed to make those decisions/mistakes while at home So I was wondering if there would be any chance of your partner going to 'neutral terrority' for a while? I know you said he has a friend who sees the mother as you do, and that's a start, but I think I really mean where he can be still and think without being bombarded with opinions. Again this may not apply to him, but has to one of my adult sons when having to make a big decision that was overwhelming, so I will mention it anyway. My son was at home with us, therefore realising what our thoughts were on this subject, wanting to keep us happy, agreeing, wanting a quiet life. I hope we are not toxic but still it would have been a major issue to confront or disagree with us. At the same time he was in contact with someone who believed the opposite to us. he wanted to keep them happy too, wanted to agree with them. And this became overwhelming for him and I suppose he had a bit of a breakdown. As his parents we asked ourselves what he really needed, and believed it was for him to go into a temporary respite situation (not at all saying your DP would need such a thing, all it would really take was to be by himself to think, or with someone who would not try to persuade him into taking what action THEY believed he should take). I think it was ten days for our son, during which time we knew we would support him in whatever his decision was. Certainly the first few days were very dramatic for him, but we did not visit and when we later did just talked of the weather etc, but it gave him the space and quiet to listen to his own inner voice and make his own decisions. Then by the time he came home he had made his decision, his own decision. A decision he could not have made at home.

Hope this makes sense. Tell me to shut up if not!!

The thing is with the birth certificate is that I don't want to punish him at the same time. I'm pretty happy to fight to keep her from interfering if he wants to have contact

I would tend to agree that NOT putting him on the birth ceritificate would be a punishment, but not just for him, but the child.

Having adopted four children I can't tell you how much the truth on legal documents mean. None of my children have ever wanted to contact their birth family, but they still have wanted to know names and their history.

As a foster carer I know it has often caused upset and trouble between the older children and their mother when they have discovered their birth certificate disguised the truth.

Of course others may have perfectly good reasons for not including the father's name, and it is not my place to judge them their decision.

I have a young adult DS with Asperger's diagnosis. In this situation I'd be bending over backwards to facilitate his relationship with his dp and future DC, and his dp's relationship with me!
Then again, I'd like to think I'm not a toxic parent.

Unfortunately, I have experience of toxic, controlling relationships within our extended family (religious cult and the long term effects of that), and I don't think there is anyway your relationship with your dp can survive while he's living at home, and it is going to be hugely difficult for him to break away from the control that they have over him - they have had almost 40 years to learn how to control him.

I think the only chance he has of working towards a normal independent life and maybe family life, is to cut his parents out of his life, and I'm not hopeful that that is likely to happen without a huge amount of support from you or maybe social services. I wonder if social services could get involved in this?

I wonder if social services could get involved in this?

I very much doubt it. I have experience of this with both young adults and also a parent with dementia. In the case of the young adult with autism/dyspraxia/learning disabilities and some physical problems, it was all about capacity. If you are deemed to have capacity (and you have to be pretty much in a coma not to) then you have the right to make your own decisions, EVEN if that decision is deemed by most people not to be right. I was actually told by SS that an adult with capacity has the right to live in a toxic environment and even allow themselves to be emotionally and financially abused as long as it is their decision. We took this to the top, but there was nothing more they could do.

OP, your local area maybe different but in the several I have worked for and asked for help from, there would definately not be any more SS involvement than a basic one-off visit.

Op don't waste your life trying to save him, it's pointless and you will never ever win. Your responsibility is to your child and you have a duty to ensure it is never exposed to the manipulation you describe. I agree your assessment of the situation is true but you need to do some serious background reading because you are blind to your own role. The first thing you must accept is that you cannot change them and you cannot control them. It's like 101for those of us who grew up in that mother/child disfunction without choice (why on earth would you want to volunteer for it?). Save yourself, save your baby and walk away.