To think that if working full time still equal grinding humiliating poverty then crime is not only to be expected, it is to be welcomed as a sensible career choice.

[scaryclown]

I.e. when conforming perfectly to the system gets you nothing at all, then it is your duty to take things from the system..
?

Or to put it another way, if work meant inclusion in society, ability to build a life and plan, and to have a family, then people wouldn't go in for criminal careers so often...?

Ok so from the US that's when you make and sell moonshine

Then system is broken and needs removing

Are implying that this is the position of many people in this country?

If so YABU.... yes, of course there are people in this country that struggle with poverty, but if you are able to work full-time, life may be tough financially but to call it 'grinding, humiliating poverty' that justifies a life of crime is insulting to billions of poorer people in the world today and throughout history. You live in a country that provide a (rising) minimum wage, free healthcare, free primary/secondary education, the rule of law, a democratic and inclusive civil society, peaceful co-existence with our neighbouring countries, financial support for housing (I.e. Housing benefit) etc, etc.. Yes, things may not be as good as it could or should be, and there will doubtless be financial struggles, but if you work full-time in this country, you really can't think you're hard done by from a historical or global perspective.

If every person as poor or poorer than a full-time minimum wage UK worker around the world (i.e. 95%+ of the population) took this view (I.e. I'm poor so I might as well be a criminal) the world would descend into lawless anarchy, and things would be far, far worse for everyone.

Coconutella has explained my thoughts much better than I could.

You sound like that Labour MP who said people with nice cars deserve to have them stolen as it makes poor people jealous

What coconutella said (better than I could)

What coconut said

YABVU, poverty in this country is relative not absolute.

How far a full time salary stretches is down to the person, some are sensible whilst some what it all even though they can't afford the choices they make.

The people most likely to suffer from your new criminal career are other people living in grinding poverty.

There are people working nearly full time who are living off handout bread and beans for the week before payday, when they only have one life, in a system where others working less hard can afford cars, holidays partners, etc and are applying for over 200jobs a week being good and polite and getting nowhere. Being polite and good means everything is taken from you, so why not ditch the polite and good behaviour that benefits others and instead take what you can however you can?

i.e. when conforming perfectly to the system gets you nothing at all

You sound like a spoilt teenager... I take it that despite your full-time job you're starving, on the street, desperately ill with no opportunity to receive healthcare, and have been deprived of your legal and democratic rights by a corrupt elite. If so, I might have some understanding, even if you do clearly still have a broadband internet connection and the requisite literacy levels to compose your OP.

Yabu

Ridiculous statement with a lack of insight and knowledge!

No one has a 'right' to be a criminal!!!!!!

If they were that entitled then they should have trained in a highly rewarding financial career

Was going to answer but cba.

I don't think benchmarking against favella dwellers or African poor makes the point that being good is better. Those are examples of poverty dehumanising and increasing crime, drugs, trafficking, prostitution, murder etc..Which I am syig is a logical and perhaps morally justified outcome of a system that steals politely by rule of law from too many of the population. Why should people have no rights because employers pay one type of person enough to eat, holiday, clothes fashionably, luxury items, and another with similar education and contribution, not enough to even wash their clothes every month?

It's perfectly possible to be highly trained and educated and still in poverty job. The quals don't come with. a free job fairly allocated to your ability level

It's life innit. Who said it was fair?

Actually, I will.

Average salary in the UK is £27,600. I earn £20,000. I run a car, have a mortgage on a flat, a pension, some savings. I have a couple of hobbies, I eat well, I go out. I work hard - some weeks 35 hours, this week 50 hours. I have a good standard of living despite being well below national average salary.

There are lots of things I would like to buy or do but as I can't afford them, I go without. I don't feel entitled to them.

I have also earned considerably less than £20,000 in the past but coped perfectly well without resorting to stealing. And no, no handouts, benefits, help from family. It's because I have self respect.

Most "career criminals" don't usually begin moulding perfectly to the system and become jaded.

Most begin young with a difficulty to adhere to societal norms and structures. I'm not suggesting this is all their fault for a moment, but there is often a pattern of low literacy skills, poor attendance at school, lots of school changes, permanent explusion(s).

Many of them will also have role models who flout authority and who have a different societal structure to ours (where might is right, for instance.)

You don't tend to get conscientious Mr Jones who worked hard but isn't bright who has a minimum wage job and is struggling to make ends meet suddenly turning to crime. I can see this might happen occasionally by accident (Mr Jones can't afford to insure his car and becomes involved in an accident) but you wouldn't get him committing a crime as a deliberate means to an end.

Although he probably would help himself to the sugar and jam in Wetherspoons.

Totally ludicrous. If you think its fine for people to steal, let's hope it's your house that's ransacked and all precious possessions taken/destroyed - even if not valuable. You obviously have no problem with that.

It's a good question poorly asked OP. I doubt it's what forces criminality. But I do think there a is a big issue with falling standards of living, unaffordability of housing and lack of opportunity.

I don't think crime is justified by being less well off in one of the richest societies on the planet.

No matter how hard a time you have, it is not permissible to take it out on your spouse by beating them, your neighbour's by nicking their stuff or the police by stabbing them.

Stealing food makes sense to me. I have plenty of sympathy and am horrified at people stealing food to eat.

The gap in wealth in this country has just got worse and worse. It's really bad for us as a society.

There are very few people stealing food because they have to, but when they do the system should help instead of punish IMO

If you're talking about a starving family shoplifting a loaf of bread then YANBU, if a single mum with 4 kids finds it her only way to feed them for the week then I get that (although food banks exist for a reason I know they're not always available on all areas).

If you're talking about a bloke kicking the head in of an old lady and nick her purse because he only earns £15k a year (below poverty line) then YABVU. That bloke is a twat and poverty is no excuse.

I understand far too many families are below the poverty line but as someone said before it's not nearly comparable with other parts of the world. We are comfortably off and have considered emigrating - one of the reasons we didn't is that if we ever hit rock bottom financially, we live in one of the best countries that would support us and our children. From child benefit, tax credits, housing benefit, free school meals, food banks, school uniform subsidies, advice from CAB, charities that provide emotional support, social housing etc, we're pretty safe compared to elsewhere.

Before anyone starts I know not everyone gets everything on that list or even benefits much more from it but all things considered the intentions of the system aren't bad and if people turn to crime before they turn to get help then it's really their own stupid fault