To think that if working full time still equal grinding humiliating poverty then crime is not only to be expected, it is to be welcomed as a sensible career choice.

[scaryclown]

I.e. when conforming perfectly to the system gets you nothing at all, then it is your duty to take things from the system..
?

[frantically sandpapers hands to make convincing callouses]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reform_in_Zimbabwe#Fast-track_land_reform_and_violence
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge

So potentially getting a criminal record is going to vastly improve someone's life so much is it?

Why do you seem to think the world owes you something OP?

I think people want to believe that precariousness living and benefit handouts is 'only temporary' and it should be, but it really isn't. I've been living like this and below for 7years now, including working for internationally high profile organisation's and major brands. Every week there are bills and aggression for money i cant afford, and i know where I'm working i have work skills better than the management. They know too, so i regularly find myself in disciplinary proceedings for made up reasons, as a way of making sure i don't make them vulnerable to lose their job.

It's completely insane, but sadly crap people don't like competent people, especially when work is hyper precarious

The more i reveal ability, the more vulnerable i am. It's not the same as Cosmo, where being bright and capable gets you promotions and a side business in twigs and bunting,. It's the polar opposite.

OK OP, having known a fair few criminals, I'll bite;
I think some people do have your attitude, that playing by the rules doesn't get you anywhere and everyone needs a little scam going on.
Plenty of people committing minor "survival" type crimes like benefit fraud, non payment of T.V licence etc would justify it in those terms. And tbh, I have sympathy with that view. More sympathy perhaps than with the middle class mum who games the school allocations system for example.
These guys are otherwise respectable but are breaking the rules "on the side" as a way to get by and smooth the passage through life.
Then you have "career" criminals who might also use the same justification. But in their case, it's generally not their true motivation. IME these guys are just very reactive personalities who like taking risks and being violent. If you break down the effort they put in to their crimes against the financial reward it often doesn't even compare well with a normal low paid job, certainly not when you take the risks into account. There really is no such thing as easy money.
I remember going round the flat of someone recently released from prison. He had a huge TV and stereo, a sofa and nothing else in the room. No books, no personal effects, no little nick nacks.
It's a shit way to live unless you get off on risk and violence for its own sake.

Er most middle class homes are empty without nick nacks these days...

A large proportion of the UK population live on meagre incomes.

A very tiny proportion of the UK population commit crime.

It just isn't an excuse and it's insulting to suggest it is.

I'd rather we killed the wealthy people tbh as per head it would liberate more capital goods and property

Yes what could go wrong when we kill all the business owners, doctors, lawyers etc

Gasp...Well i guess all the people who could do those jobs but aren't doing them would do them. I note no freakout s about killing large population s of poor and stopping them from breeding, but massive outrage for the wealthy few...Defending them won't make them welcome you as one of their own you know...

I am totally against killing them....but they could pay more taxes. And obey the laws themselves.

I note no freakout s about killing large population s of poor

It's a good point.

I've been living like this and below for 7years now, including working for internationally high profile organisation's and major brands. Every week there are bills and aggression for money i cant afford, and i know where I'm working i have work skills better than the management. They know too, so i regularly find myself in disciplinary proceedings for made up reasons, as a way of making sure i don't make them vulnerable to lose their job."

OP can you tell us a bit more about this? What sort of work are you doing for "high profile international brands" that pays so little you are unable to meet your basic bills?

At first I thought you meant McDonald's or similar but I can't see that they'd bother with multiple disciplinaries rather than just telling you to go if they see you as a trouble maker.

Also, these jobs obviously attract minimum wage. Many pay living wage. Are your bills very high? Do you work less than full time? Do you have children?

I know it's not about you but a living example would be useful. Don't get me wrong, i struggle with money and I am a higher earner, but I am in debt of my own doing and supporting a non earning partner so I've made those circumstances happen. They're not usual for someone who earns as much as I do.

I get your frustration OP. The system is set up unfairly and yet we're told to blame the individual.

Basically it's about the birth lottery. Schools don't teach that though, they push the "you can be anything you want" bullshit.

People saying the average wage is £26,000 are misinformed. The rich few push up the mean figure of 26k. The median and mode are more useful. In some counties, such as Cumbria, the average wage is £12,000. All these figures are before tax of course.

I'm sure all the PPs are living a nice life with their families on a household income of 12k. And I'm sure none of them are in damp dingy rented houses, they all found a bank to give them a mortgage on a lovely new build too

No. It may be a duty to resist the system, however - join your local Marxists!

Objectively, there is something going terribly wrong with your trajectory in life.

You claim great ability and skill, sometimes in excess of your superiors. High profile organisations and brands to boot.

If only they'd notice your greatness and abilities instead of disciplining you. Something's going wrong here and that's what you need to address.

Ask yourself why no one else is seeing yourself as you do? Why aren't you being offered opportunities if you have all this talent?

I'm afraid you do sound a bit chippy.

"I note no freakout s about killing large population s of poor and stopping them from breeding"

...For the record, I am also against this!

By "wealthy" do you mean those with large incomes, or those with lots of savings, property etc? Because the two don't always go together.

The former are likely doing jobs which are not that easily replaced - killing them would make things worse, taxing them more would be sensible.
With the latter group, instead of killing them you could increase inheritance tax and wait for Time to do the heavy lifting.

Interesting thought experiment, but I hope you're OK OP.

Mystery It's not misinformed. That is the official figure from the ONS. I don't disagree that the median and mode are more useful.

I'd suggest that those of you horrified by this suggestion do not have any first hand experience of direct, grinding, everyday poverty.

Its very patronising to suggest that those people should be warmed by the idea that they live in a first world country and it could all be a lot worse.

Real poverty in this country isn't starving on the streets no. But it is being completely disenfranchised from society. Its not just a part of your life, it IS your life. Its there every minute of every day in every decision you make. Essentially when you are long term poor it defines who you are, who your children are, what your life is.

The suggestion or underlying theme is that hard work is what we need. Hard work will get you out of poverty. I'm always interested in what people mean when they say they 'worked hard' for their money. Worked hard how? Actually physical labour? Cleaning for 10 hrs a day, digging ditches, building something with their hands, doing a dangerous physical job? The majority of the people I know who 'worked hard' tend to sit at a desk fannying around on their computer for the day. Not hard work at all, especially if we are comparing ourselves with third world countries. I graft. I graft my arse off 5 days a week. Actual physical labour with my hands. I certainly work harder than my boss who has every luxury he could ever want.

As for crime being a solution. I can see the draw of it. I'm not suggesting robbing your neighbour but I understand perhaps where some crime comes from and it does have its roots in poverty. When you are poor you aren't part of society anyway. You are unable to take part in the 'norms' that most of our country partakes in. I can see where the disconnect comes from when you feel like you've been fucked over (and sometimes generations of your families), why would you respect the wealthy?

What is the proposal exactly? That we keep offenses such as fraud, theft etc as illegal acts but remove the social disapproval or that we selectively decriminalize them based on some kind of means testing? Neither makes any kind of logical sense.

Having been the victim of several crimes in my lifetime, including 2 burglaries, several car thefts and a violent mugging, I don't give a flying fart how hungry or disadvantaged the perpetrators were, they are still scum.

I do think that are system is broken and needs fixed so that there is a fairer distribution of wealth but sanctioning crime is a nonsensical idea.

I'm not being disciplined because I'm a trouble maker, or because of lack of productivity - they are desperate not to lose me-i am being 'disciplined' so that they can block me going on leadership courses..As that would threaten them as the leadership positions are full..Some with totally ineffective leader who know managers above are desperate to get good people into. They do recognise my 'greatness' as you put it, hence to boot on my head.

OK so ditch the organisation and try another?

On what grounds are they disciplining you?

But herotherhalf if better reward for work stopped crime, you'd be against that, because that would be 'rewarding' former "scum'?

There's no point in trying to push water uphill as the only one who'll lose out is you.

Are you suggesting it makes sense for someone in very difficult financial circumstances to forgo the protection of the law?

Would it be to their temporary or long term advantage to say ok everyone with very low incomes in Thistown feel free to break the law, it's your Scarysolution.

My guess is that would work out best for the young, fit, able, ruthless, single and childfree.

I don't fancy my chances if DV perpetrator (currently out of my life for 10 years) had free rein to threaten my 3 year old and redistribute to himself & criminal pals the fruits of my labour as a care worker.