To think that if working full time still equal grinding humiliating poverty then crime is not only to be expected, it is to be welcomed as a sensible career choice.

[scaryclown]

I.e. when conforming perfectly to the system gets you nothing at all, then it is your duty to take things from the system..
?

That's not what the pp was saying at all!

And with that last post, you've demonstrated beautifully how dreadful your social skills are.

It's not them. It's you. Get help.

I have to agree with you Farmer - I do have a lot of sympathy for people living on low pay but this poster just wants to blame the rest of the world, take no responsibility at all, and ignore well meaning advice.

You need to think of way to improve your situation and not just rail at everyone else.

I won't lie, I've stolen food before. I got with my partner a few years ago, I'd just moved over to where I am and was on benefits while looking at colleges and applying. I fell pregnant, and luckily my partner was happy (he had just lost his job) so we were both on benefits, I moved in with him and we got a joint claim, we were £40 worse off a fortnight and we had to pay about £80 a month for rent. It was hard, I peas pregnant and we could only afford £20 a fortnight on food, we lived off toast and Iceland chips and nuggets. Occasionally a great but it meant we would be on toast for at least two/three full days. I'm not proud of it, but we stole food from big supermarkets because we were so hungry and wanted something like cheese, even ketchup seemed a luxury at that point. We are better off now and have never stolen since. It was hard and I hated that we done things by the book and lost £40 because of it.

I understand where you're coming from.
I think your anger is a bit misguided, but I understand and I've been there. I think you're partially correct. I think out of desperation some people will steal some food, or a few quid from someone. Unfortunately I have been there too, as a young person entitled to no government help because I was young and had no kids(if I'd been over 25 I'd have been entitled to a few hundred a month, how they think my rent, food and bills were any cheaper I'll never know). I felt I got shat on at every turn. I understand being angry at everyone. But I don't think your anger at those better off is deserved really. Nor do I think people in poverty turn into career criminals though, as you say. But I can see how it can be done a few times from sheer desperation.
I hope you're ok and you've been given lots of constructive advice

When I give the poor food, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist. Helder Camara, Archbishop of Olinde and Recife.

True.

I think the blindness of those who are ok as to why they are ok and what cost it is to those they expect to subsidize them being ok, with their labour, is unacceptable. Society should be nice to people who are in grinding poverty so the others can have cheap food nice clothes, eat out etc, but instead its all 'you fool, it's your fault' and condemnation of their lifestyles. Is the anger because poor people remind them how guilty they should feel?

The problem i have is that just because wealthy 'stealing' is dressed up and protected by complicated laws and structures, doesn't mean it's acceptable. And even if it is, why play that game if it's never going to pay out for you? Why not take? When do you feel someone has been good and subservient for long enough that it's ok to take stuff if you aren't going to get it by being good?

Proudhon would have been proud of you, scary, but I think you'll find the tired old anarchists' mantra of "property is theft" has been thoroughly debunked now

As so many PPs have remarked, you've had endless thoughtful, helpful and practical suggestions from kindly posters and engaged with absolutely none of them

Interesting

Not really that interesting. Some people when faced with a wider picture argument want to bring it down to an individual case so that they can dismiss the wider issue.

There is clearly a link, and i am saying a justifiable one, between increased desire to commit crime, and reduced opportunity, increased poverty and increased humiliation as a result. As the evidence is so strong, I'm amazed that some people here are so blinkered!

You CAN construct complicated reason why the poor are to blame for decisions that create low wages, precarious employment and damaging financial aggression against the poor, but i don't think that's valid.

Some poster here are being helpful, others are essentially trying to prove, by diverting the issue to my situation only, that it is the poor's fault.

I'm amazed that some people here are so blinkered!

So you've said - endlessly

In your quest to blame everyone else for everything - whether your own situation or more generally - has it occurred to you that others might be perfectly well aware of some of these issues, but just happen not to agree with your point of view?

With some regret, I've finally come to the same view as the PPs who've suggested that the core reason for your difficulties is only too obvious

I was not diverting to your issue to get round discussing the topic which is a very interesting one. I just tend to solve problems in life so usually can help people in their own situations.

If the question is why do some people in the UK not have enough food that is quite a complex one. Some families have a whole raft of problems to face at the same time.

As to when it is morally justifiable to steal from others the essay we'd write on that topic could take a long while to prepare. A lady solicitor was caught stealing £4m this week and struck off and jailed for 7 years. She bought her son a £800,000 wine collection amongst other things. She is 67. You just wonder why people take these risks.

I suppose my point is it doesn't matter if you think it's not morally wrong to steal, if you steal you might end up in prison so it's not worth the risk.

I don't know if we are increased crime rate though. We now have a higher employment rate than we did. The minimum wage is about to go up - biggest pay rise in 25 years for the bottom 25% so we are not really at rock bottom for the poor at the moment even though I am sure life feel very hard indeed for many people.
I have a photo from the 1920s of my mother and her grandmother. The whole of their garden is completely filled with potato plants, no lawn or anything. She kept a pig in the garden too. My grandmother had had to move countries (from Ireland) to get work and then tried to keep the family going by growing stuff which has been passed down. Of course you cannot easily get an allotment or afford one so I am not suggesting this is some magic solution.

Is it wrong to steal rather than will you get caught is for each person to decide in accordance ith their own moral code. The lady who stole £4m probably felt it was a victimless crime

tired old anarchists' mantra of "property is theft" has been thoroughly debunked now

I'm pretty sure there has been no "debunking". About the phrase, Marx was referring to the German wood gathering laws. He made the point that when something was removed from common ownership and made private it was stealing from society at large.

The logic is hard to fault...what was once there for all, is now off limits to society. Whether we as a society allow this, which it seems we have, is not necessarily a debunking of the concept.

re 'theft' i note the police involvement in a child picking flowers recently. thats quite a neat demonstration of that.

I was thinking about the use of the phrase/idea 'you are just seeking to blame anyone but yourself' idea today with reference to Health and Safety. When children used to get their arms ripped off in factories, owners used to say 'well the machines are dangerous, so if you can't keep away from the machines, then you deserve the outcome' - now we realise that design, safety procedures and the way humans behave in different states have a contribution over and above the user being reckless, and those who make decisions about that are held to be responsible for getting them right. I wonder how many of the 'blame everyone but yourself' brigade would be suing manufacturers if they were injured because their airbag didn't go off, or try to get a restaurant to pay because food got spilt on them - shouldb't they have known they were in a place where things get spilt??

today with reference to Health and Safety

This is a very good example.