To think that if working full time still equal grinding humiliating poverty then crime is not only to be expected, it is to be welcomed as a sensible career choice.

[scaryclown]

I.e. when conforming perfectly to the system gets you nothing at all, then it is your duty to take things from the system..
?

But why are we allowing a system that clearly makes some very able people so poor they can't eat properly exist, and why shouldn't it result in people seeking to redress the balance by acting outside that system...Or another way, why do we expect people to politely get screwed harder and harder and get cross at them not being polite about being screwed? It's almost like being in a boat with survival rations for eight, five eating all the food and drinking 95% of the water and then being shocked if the starving three date to get angry about it, and sedating them for 'rage issues'

OK scary what's your answer to the problem?

The reality is, for most criminals, a life of crime does not lead to wealth and comfort but to more grinding poverty with added dangers (violence, imprisonment etc). It's therefore usually a move made by the none too bright (or the young and vulnerable) who have extremely limited prospects anyway, rather than the noble, hard-working poor. A good essay on the subject is "Why do drug pushers always live with their mother" in one of the "Freakanomics" books.

Crime isn't the choice for most people because its a shitty choice.

Because the only solution is not to commit crimes OP! Are you happy for them to commit all crimes? Is murder ok when a poor person does it? Or do you mean theft? And if you do, is it theft from a shop or burglary of a house OK as well as long as it's not a poor person's house?

As someone said earlier 'poor' people are the most affected when others commit crimes so it wouldn't benefits anyone

the rule of law

Well one could make the point that the rule of law is a poor example. Is this the rule of law that produced, out of the historic fraud-fest banking scandal, just one prosecution....some young guy way down the chain for making the mistake of being honest about LIBOR manipulation? One guy?

Is this the rule of law that results in the basement level prosecution rate for sexual assault? The one which shows starkly contrasting levels of justice according to the amount one has to spend on legal representation (as we continue to cut legal aid)? Mass surveillance? Kettling and water cannon? Orgreave?

I am a big fan, but it is far from a perfect thing.

Mmmm income inequality has actually reduced. Disposable income has fallen for many.

It starts with education and aspiration. Poor advice and poor choices from the outset tie people in to long term social immobility.

Value education, think about what kind of jobs make a lot of money and work back to what you'd need to do to obtain that kind of job. Can be a skilled or professional job - (e.g. construction is a great sector. Isn't just skilled building, it's site managers, programmers, cost planners, h&s roles, QS, building surveyors, project managers, bid writing etc etc - LOADS of career paths, and lots of opportunities for women as firms get out under pressure to equalise such a male dominated industry) - that's an example. It could be any other industry - law, finance, accounting whatever.

But to get into that kind of job, you need education and skills. So as a parent you have a duty to your children to get them to understand how incredibly vital it is to get the exams at school.

Once you're stuck in a low-paying unskilled work it's a total trap - no time to train, can't afford to train, the sort of job you can get offers no progression. Depressing.

in a system where others working less hard can afford cars, holidays partners, etc

YABU to suggest that people who are earning more money don't work as hard as poor people

Also, as Rainbows said, poverty is relative not absolute.

Committing crime due to 'poverty' is a cop out most of the time. It's more likely to be greed than actual poverty.

But it seems no less shitty a choice than working if it's hand to mouth and so is working. Why shouldn't the excluded people take from those who are excluding them? Why are people dying without fulfillment just out of politeness? Is politeness about being screwed a very stupid and effete reaction? Isn't crime more logical?

YABVU.

Isn't crime more logical?

No.

Also...

and why shouldn't it result in people seeking to redress the balance by acting outside that system

Are you suggesting some kind of Robin Hood style system?

£20,000 is still more than minimum wage though.

Or to put it another way, if in 1000 generations Nigeria is still going to be poor if it is good and polite, why shouldn't it have a fraud training programme to manoeuvre money away from the systems that advocate politeness..Only because it benefits them... ? So why doesn't this apply all the way through?

Why are people dying without fulfillment just out of politeness?

What does that even mean? Why aren't people doing what they want to do because they don't want to steal from others?

Sounds like you have a very entitled attitude. Why should people who have worked hard to get where they are, fund the lifestyle of others who could better themselves but instead make poor life choices

OP had something happened to prompt your post? Are you ok?

Freckles Never said it wasn't. I said it was below average. But on that level I had a perfectly acceptable standard of living. And also that I had lived on far, far less and still coped without resorting to crime.

Scary Look at how much money has been poured into Africa over the last 30 years. Billions and billions. Have poverty levels decreased? Barely. One solution would be to sterilise huge percentages of the population so that millions of children are not born into poverty every year who will also die in poverty and have no standard of life. Then there may be a chance to raise people from the poverty level. Sound sensible to you? There's a way out of poverty for millions, why don't we do that?

Isn't crime more logical?

It seems to be for bankers. Especially as when the wheels come off we excuse them and bail them out.

You don't just choose your job like it's a free vending machine ' oh whoops I pressed c8 instead of d8 so I'm not a banker making phonecalls and getting £6m , I'm in a call center at £10k ..What a poor life choice.!

You can be highly qualified and poor, aspirational, educated, aware and yet (as i was last night with a queue of people doing the same) hanging around late night supermarkets after midnight for their pay to go in after three days of living on 9p bread like a fucking beggar.

I'd rather we killed the wealthy people tbh as per head it would liberate more capital goods and property.

OK, now you really are talking out of your arse

Someone who is starving stealing bread from a shop is not necessarily morally wrong, but what if they're stealing that bread from a starving child? Generally it is easier to steal from someone weaker than you.
And, despite awful poverty, that's not really the situation we're in is it?

If you took what you're saying to the logical conclusion we would rapidly descend into anarchy - everyone stealing what they can, and defending what they have by whatever means possible. That doesn't lead to a more equal society - it leads to a society where the physically strong and well armed get the lions share, and the weak, disabled, old get nothing.
So things would be even worse than now, thus we do all have a stake in a stable society - unless you are a very physically strong, very aggressive, very impoverished person in which case you might be better off in the alternative.

"Today 07:53
scaryclown
There are people working nearly full time who are living off handout bread and beans for the week before payday, when they only have one life, in a system where others working less hard can afford cars, holidays partners, etc and are applying for over 200jobs a week being good and polite and getting nowhere. Being polite and good means everything is taken from you, so why not ditch the polite and good behaviour that benefits others and instead take what you can however you can?"

I want to say I don't judge people for this. BUT it is not normal to live in grinding poverty relying on food bank handouts whilst claiming the benefits you are entitled to. The majority of time people in this situation are in it temporarily, either because they are between benefits claims or experiencing benefit delay/ reclaim.

Or, let's be honest, they are in debt which is a common reason for the situation. The debt is very expensive and spirals. This is what society should be obliged to address.

It is NOt accepted in the U.K. In 2017 that people are working full time yet so short every month they spend a week at the food bank (and most food banks need referrals which they wouldn't be getting on a monthly basis)

Op I agree with your logic up to a point. In fact I have always thought crime is the logical extension of the free market libertarian right wing ideal. However in practical terms it makes no sense since there are almost no victimless crimes and if behaving seems imperfectly related to reward, offending is hardly any more perfectly treated. Getting a criminal record and/or being banged up will tend to limit a lot of future prospects.

"I'd rather we killed the wealthy people tbh as per head it would liberate more capital goods and property"

Similar has been tried before, and it never worked out brilliantly.

I'd rather we killed the wealthy people tbh as per head it would liberate more capital goods and property.

Easy now.