To hate women being called girls?

[skerrywind]

My mother does it constantly. She will talk of the "girl" who served her at the bank.

My niece shared this video which is great

'woman' sounds wrong to some people because it's too often said in a derogatory manner, in a way that 'man' isn't. It should be perfectly OK. In the context of someone referring to a customer, where it wouldn't be unusual to hear 'this gentleman', then 'this lady' would also (IMO) be quite appropriate, as it would be being used as a polite, deferential term.

I'm happy with awkwardness in this situation, because it is a result of being conscious about language. My DC and I call people in shops and other randoms this or that 'person'. It's second nature to me now (and first nature to the DC iyswim) but you can see it jars with others.

Wrt to the issue of whether people mind being called girls or whatever - see to me, it's not about whether I personally like it, or even whether you do. It's about framing the world (not just you but others) in a way that dignifies them with full adult status. 'The girls in the office' doesn't just name those specific women, it creates a framework of language that infantilises women working in offices. Completely fine it women at work were afforded the status of men at work, but as manifestly they are not (gender pay gap, the fact that women predominate lower pay grades, the gender imbalance at higher levels, etc) I'm careful to speak in a way that insists on full adult human status of the people I talk about.

I'm completely sure this will go down like a lead balloon, so I just want to say, that's my reasoning and I think it is good and I'm just explaining my choices here - in rl I do not labour or worry about this and I do not get lathered up by others' way of doing things and you can go ahead and knock yourself out calling me and everyone else a girl and I won't be PO by it. I'm just saying why I do what I do, and it has taken me longer to write it out than I have ever spent thinking about it.

So is it OK to refer collectively to a group of women as "ladies" in an email? I have an all female team (all are much younger than me) and when I email them all together I think "hi all" sounds a bit unfriendly, whereas "hi ladies" sounds both informal yet respectful - is this OK do you think? It's a minefield. I haven't had any feedback from them that they don't like it but I don't want to offend.

It really really doesn't bother me. I do hate being referred to as Madam by shop assistants though. That makes me feel ancient.

Referring to your own kids as girls and boys is obviously fine. 'girls night out', 'boys night out' - casual usage, do what the heck you like. It's in formal and professional contexts where unequal language can have subtly (or sometimes rather obviously) negative connotations, tending to diminish women.

YANBU - I HATE it
I will correct people, especially at work (it's also a male dominated environment).

Good post Outself

If a man ever refers to a woman as a girl on MN they are given a hard time. There was a thread about two weeks ago where within three replies he was handed his arse on a plate. Last week there was a thread started by a woman where she referred to another woman as a girl. Not one person pulled her up on it.

Unless you literally ban every man from calling their partner their girlfriend, every women from calling their partner their boyfriend, from every man saying "I'm off out with the lads", every woman from having "a night out with the girls".

Unless someone is deliberately doing it in a sexist demeaning and deliberately antagonistic way to wind you up, I think there are far worse things to be getting worried about.

I agree with that Shatners.

My manager starts emails with Hi Girls. I think Hi Ladies would be marginally better. Hi Everyone or Hi All would be better still.

I was thinking about this randomly the other day.
You know when we are most likely to infantalise men?
When they are violent and/or criminal.

Men tend to be MEN until they stab someone or rob a bank and then they are happy to be called a 'bad boy'.

'ooh I love a bad boy, can't help it' says a women whose OH is a twat who keeps getting into pub fights.

I don't mind so much being called 'hun.'

I know some people do get irritated by that word though.

So is it OK to refer collectively to a group of women as "ladies" in an email?

No, please don't. I have complained at work that receiving mails addressed to "dear gents" is excluding. "But I always check very carefully to make sure no women are on there," said my manager. Others don't, and I still get forwarded on mails sometimes. And if "dear gents" is not okay, then neither is "dear ladies." And it does matter, particularly in male-dominated industries - I will keep pointing it out until we don't default to male any more.

Why do people find "hi all" or "hello everybody" or other gender non-specific greetings difficult anyway? They automatically include everyone who receives it.

I can't be doing with 'bad boys,' or women who go for them, and then cry and whine, and expect sympathy when it all goes wrong.

I prefer a good, solid, reliable man who will look after me, as much as I will look after him.

It's quite normal up here in the north. My 70yr old colleague will often say something along the lines of "I saw a girl I went to school with today" or "A lad I used to go out with has just died" or "I'm going out for lunch with the lasses from the gym" etc.

It's just the way everyone speaks up here, nobody would ever pass comment over it.

My husband refers to my Nan as a girl.

She's 88.

Of course this isn't the most important matter, but language, thought and behaviours are interlinked.

If you have kids, are you totally happy if in their 20s (or beyond) your DD is commonly referred to as a 'girl' in a work context, while her brother is a 'man' (or bloke, chap - adult terms)? Do you think it makes no difference in the seriousness with which her colleagues and bosses think about her? Does it never have an impact when they're thinking about promotions and pay rises?

If you can honestly say 'yes' to those questions, well then carry on referring to 'the girl in the bank'.

I'm a bit old-fashioned, I don't mind "ladies" as a collective term of address. However, it does come over a bit funny in a talkboard post for some reason. Inappropriately formal?

Dear all, dear team, hi everyone, good morning people, it's all good in a non-gender-specific way. (I say "hi folks" knowing perfectly well it's ungrammatical.) I quite like the generalised use of "guys" as well. If the manager were to address the meeting as "guys and dolls" there might be a riot though. (As currently the only doll on the team I'd have to riot solo but I'd have a go.)

There's nothing wrong with me calling myself and a group of mates "girls", in an ironic way given that none of us have technically been girls for several decades, whereas to my mind there's quite a difference if a man came up to us and addressed us as "girls". It's like hearing someone use the N word to describe themselves and concluding I can use it for them too. HUGE difference.

Coming at it from another angle entirely I can't stand 'I'm going out with the girls' or 'girls weekend away'. Quite often the girls haven't been girls for several decades. It all seems a bit 'clinging on to a long gone youth'.
Why can't it just be a night out, or a weekend away with friends?

I realise this is just my opinion though and many people on here will enjoy their 'nights out with the girls'. Live and let live I guess.

Considering how hard it can be to identify someone's gender (or even sex) these days, I like "person", but I think it would be more fun to get away from speciesism and start using "primate" or "mammal".

I think the lack of a positive casual word for female human (no real equivalent to chap, lad, guy) is similar to the lack of the female equivalent for "willy". All words for female human are somehow demeaning, even "woman", (which makes quite a few of you squirm, seems unduly old and formal to some, and seems etymologically like it originally meant "wife of man", though it's complicated).

Words grow out of how we think, and are symbolic. Changing symbols can help us to examine how we think, and become more aware of our unconscious biases.

I have to say if I read an OP on here and it starts 'Hi ladies' I automatically think either a troll or a man or both.

'Hi ladies' isn't something I would say or write personally.

Also, clinging to youth is something that men don't do. Men are proud to grow up, as they are valued for strength and power, which tend to com with age. Women are often valued for their youth and fragility. Women spend a lot of energy hiding their ageing process and feeling invisible once they reach real maturity.

Yes. Men gain gravitas with age.
Women gain invisibility.

What about when girls are called ladies? Do people have a problem with that? Quite often you hear girls as young as six being referred to as 'young lady' when infact they are no where close to being a lady.

Errol and outself have verbalised how I feel about it very eloquently, in a way I couldn't!
I feel a bit about (and pity somewhat too) grown women who feel old when they're referred to as what they are-women.
I think an examination on why certain terms are used would be helpful, like claraschu has.