School rewarding 8 yr olds for bad behaviour

[Pugwash2005]

My ds and his friends have been complaining because the 4 'naughty' children in their class have a tea party every Friday afternoon if they get over 12 'smileys' in a week, 2 'good' children are also picked to go along. There was an incident in school with one of the challenging pupils but he was still allowed to the party. Ds & I along with other mums think this party is making other children feel they are not rewarded for their good behaviour along with the fact that even when naughty these 4 kids get rewarded. Your opinions on this would be great

This is one of the reasons private education is popular. At my son's. Prep school there was a strong system of punishments and rewards. DS 2 was once in trouble for messing about in class and the next day he was in a working party sweeping the drive, he didn't do it again.

The way this works for children with a lot of challenging behaviour is that rewards and punishments are kept separate, rewards are earned and if they've earned twelve smileys then they keep the twelve smileys. Otherwise they have no motive to try to earn the smileys in the first place. Earning the smileys is hard work for them and you wouldn't work hard to build up rewards which could instantly be taken away again. So they get a separate punishment for bad behaviour and if the smiley is for a specific time period (like a half day of good behaviour) they just don't get a smiley for that one period. The other smileys don't get taken away.

My DS attended a small specialist behaviour playgroup (run by experts at the children's hospital) which ran a token reward scheme to earn a party at the end for all the kids. It was a shared total and a shared party and the kids took it very seriously. So a similar principle. Dreadful behaviour (of which there was plenty) meant they didn't get tokens but they didn't lose what they had so they were motivated to keep trying.

It's trickier when some kids are not part of the scheme or there are big differences in ability to behave well - all the kids on DS's scheme were challenging in one way or another. If you feel this is demotivating the other children then perhaps you should speak to the teacher so she can clarify things to the other kids and find ways to motivate them, perhaps putting more emphasis on the two "helper" kids. My DS's (mainstream) school had "star of the week" which the kids associated with good behaviour but in reality every child was guaranteed to get once in the year. So every kid got recognised by the teacher and had their good points highlighted by the other kids in the class. Challenging kids like my DS only got it after a week when they hadn't done anything too dreadful (and could be complimented on being funny or a good friend) The quiet kids got acknowledged and the kind, well behaved and hard working kids all had their contribution recognised.

The 'naughty' children may not be getting enough sleep, with phones, TVs and tablets being on until late. Recent studies have shown that a blue light coming from phones and tablets prevent the brain from falling asleep properly. The devices need to be off one hour before sleep time.

On the whole I agree that what the OP calls "naughty kids" need positive behaviour reinforcing strategies rather than punishment.

A tea party though? Every week?

If it's the same 4 children who are always 'naughty' and need this intervention then there is obviously either disability or adverse conditions at home (or both). All children misbehave sometimes (some more than others) and I'm sure every child in the class does to varying degrees. But severe, persistent, challenging behaviour isn't displayed by happy, well-adjusted children.

"The 'good' children are rewarded with happy school days, good friendships, good grades, future success and generally every chance of a happy life."

This. Absolutely.

I know they call it a 'tea party'.

However, wouldn't be surprised if...

1. It takes place at a point of the week when the class is in need of calm and order (homework being given out, tests being marked, book reviews being shared...).

2. It involves a TA or SALT setting expectations for sharing, table manners, taking turns in conversation, giving and receiving compliments - with the 2 'good children' being used as role models.

Calling it a 'tea party' helps with the motivation of good behaviour. "Come on Kyle, it's time for your behaviour intervention group!" tends not to work so well.

1 child in my class is taken out half way through each session for a movement break. I'm sure the other 29 would love to do this too, but they can manage to focus for longer than 20 minutes without disrupting the learning of the children around them.

A couple of years ago I'd have agreed with all the people on this thread who say that it's not fair to reward "bad" kids for doing things that "good" kids do all the time etc etc.

I am now the parent of a child who has enormous difficulties at school and in the classroom environment and I can categorically say that teachers are professionals who need to be left to do whatever they have to do to keep ALL children calm, happy as motivated.

I was a proper little apple polisher at school. It has taken me a long time to understand exactly why my child is different and why he can't just sit down, do his work and "be like everyone else". We have very strong behaviour expectations (and resultant good behaviour, manners etc.) at home (the paediatrician's report said we are "knowledgeable and informed parents... doing their very best"), but the school environment is a whole different game; sitting and "learning" is a huge problem, mainly due to DC's learning difficulties.

So, I feel judged every day by the parents of "good" children. I know my DC is disruptive, but during school hours it is really up to the school to make it work. I suggest you speak to the teacher, but also, that you help your DC to understand exactly what is going on. Perpetuating the "it's not fair" attitude is damaging for your own child and their attitude toward others who have a vastly different experience of the world.

When my son was in primary reception and KS1 they also used traffic light / sticker charts depending on the class. Traffic lights everyone started on amber on Monday and went to red or green depending on behaviour, stickers were given as rewards and child placed them on the chart to reach a target by the end of term for a certificate or small reward. My son was always on green on the traffic light and used to be really peed off if he'd done really good work or something that earned the reward but never got it, I tried explaining that sometimes others need a bit more motivation/help to get to the goal the teacher has set, whether it be behaviour,work etc, eventually it sunk in.
One boy was particularly disruptive, but what you would call a lovable rogue, and everybody did, all of his classmates willed him to get the stickers etc, when they did group work they offered their rewards so he would go further up the charts - he blossomed - my son was forever on green or on the middle rung of the ladder, as were a lot of his friends but they "got" the idea worked for those that needed the system and so were happy it worked for them.

My "naughty" child doesn't get enough sleep. Not because of devices, but because he has extreme anxiety over school. He is regularly punished for his disability (he was dx at 3 btw), he does not receive any incentives and he self-harms. This should hopefully please a few of the posters on here. Enjoy!

Yep that sounds about right.
The idea is to reward said children for their efforts in behaving well or as my own dcs have said in behaving normally.

Yes the children who are behaving well wo the need to said incentives are finding it bloody unfair. Again as my dcs said at the time,
' I don't get any reward, actually I'm expected to behave well and will get told off if I slightly misbehaving. Bu they can get away with murder.'

I have spent many times explaining that some children find it hard, that they can be some reason for that (what happens at home, some behaviour issues etc etc) so really they need support and it's normal. I don't think I have ever convinced them about it.

The one effect that sort of techniques has had is to stop them trying 'to behave particularly well' as what is the point because I am expected to do so and will never get praise from that. Somthe aim shifed from wanting to behave well or really well to behave well enough to not to get told off (finding the lowest denominator ... :()

I really don't think it's the best way BUT I'm also sure that the school will come back with a 'we know best' and 'this is THE way to deal with that sort of issues so I don't expect you to get anywhere unfortunately.

And my "good" child did get demotivated as he wasn't able to get any rewards when the school revamped the behaviour policy after a terrible Ofsted. The focus was rightly on tackling the low level disruptive behaviour. I explained to him how being able to motivate yourself with school work will make his life a lot easier than his classmates that struggle. And that as the class behaviour improved, the teacher would have more time for all the children, so it was an indirect reward to him too.

Unbeknownst to my "good" child, I had a very quiet word with the teacher and mentioned my "good" child could probably do with a quiet word of acknowledgement. Which happened.

I don't know how to quote, sorry. But this comment...

In the US they have non-academic programs for sen kids. Nothing will ever work for all and sadly most kids will still end up in prison. But it at least gives them a sense of achievement and some life skills they can actually use.

...made my blood boil. WTAF?! My son is super, super bright. One of his 'rewards' for getting all his smileys is extension work in the areas he's interested in. He's desperate to get into the juniors where he can learn computer coding and I'm fairly sure that will be a big motivation for him. Yes he's got SEN but we're working hard to give him strategies to manage those needs by himself as he gets older. The idea of writing him off, sticking him in a non-academic programme where he would be bored out of his mind, and expecting him to end up in prison whatever we do, is properly, absolutely batshit crazy.

Fraye i think everyone would agree that there is a need to have some leeway for some children just as there is a need to have something special implemented for them within the classroom.

If dc2 had behaved at school the way he was at home (hitting, screaming, full meltdown), he would probably have ended up in that group too.
Except that I also know this wouldn't have had any effect on him. This wasn't the solution (just as I supposed this is not reallynthe solution for your DC either. It's much more complex that an simple reward at the end of the week)

My point would be that, yes those dcs need support BUT this system isn't working. Not for the disruptive dcs, nor for the one who aren't.

Xpost. We are in the same lines Fraye

The key for teachers is, I think, making sure that the "good" children are praised and rewarded, too.

Just enough to show that their efforts are acknowledged.

But the fact is that some children need more help and attention and that's that. It would be far better to teach a child this, than to join in bemoaning their fate and feeding their sense of injustice.

"Come on Kyle, it's time for your behaviour intervention group!" tends not to work so well.

Firstly these children are not 'naughty' they probably have ADHD or are on the autistic spectrum.
So, children never deliberately misbehave?

This is one of the reasons private education is popular. At my son's. Prep school there was a strong system of punishments and rewards. DS 2 was once in trouble for messing about in class and the next day he was in a working party sweeping the drive, he didn't do it again

This wouldn't work with my ADHD son though, most children learn or can put the punishment with the behaviour. A lot of sen children lack the ability to do this. My son would be deeply deeply upset and not understand why he was made to do this. He often can't remember what he's done or why he's upset. Chances are he would refuse and then what? Bigger and nastier punishments for refusing the punishment?

I am going to add this - DS was a good kid - however there were plenty of naughty children in his class - the teacher cancelled trips and golden time for the whole class of those non behaving children didn't meet targets!

Would you prefer that? And yes I had something to say about it - as did many of the other parents.

KathyBeale you seem to be missing the point, the groups are for children who are not academic. They don't just stick everyone in them . It means the children are often removed from the environment that causes the stress or anxiety but are still given the chance to earn credits in an area they can excell in. If that makes your blood boil then so be it.

greenpepper My "naughty" child doesn't need anything "special". Just a couple of reasonable adjustments and a small amount of understanding. He is statemented etc btw. He used to just go quiet, but the challenges of Yr6 have seen him become "rude." His self-esteem is such he probably wouldn't accept any rewards as he believes he doesn't deserve any "privileges" and his "classmates would laugh at him". He's fine at home, apart from being absolutely distraught about school and believing he is going insane.

But if you child is unhappy, you must speak to the school about what they can do to help your child. I don't think taking a system away that works for the others is the way to go, personally.

GreenPeppers if my child was choosing not to do their best then I would be having words with them.
Although schools might dish out treats and rewards to encourage kids that might have issues with impulse control etc behaving well isn't about getting a pat on the head from a teacher. The real rewards for behaving well are being able to understand work, learning new things, making friendships, becoming trusted by others and when they're older gaining qualifications. Some children might not fully understand the real life rewards of behaving well but if you have a child who does I wouldn't be shifting the blame onto others when they choose to underperform.

FrayedHem your school sounds awful tbh.

It's a teacher-specific problem Tomorrowwillbeachicken although the school is currently rated Ofsted inadequate. We've recently reached crisis point and the Head seems to want to fix things. We shall see..... He's got a specialist placement for secondary, I just hope this year's damage is reversable.

I think the OP would love the teacher though. Only concerned of the "other children" noticing the "rude behaviour" and thinking they can be rude too. And my "naughty" child's behaviour is a "choice" and the teacher "won't accept it".