School rewarding 8 yr olds for bad behaviour

[Pugwash2005]

My ds and his friends have been complaining because the 4 'naughty' children in their class have a tea party every Friday afternoon if they get over 12 'smileys' in a week, 2 'good' children are also picked to go along. There was an incident in school with one of the challenging pupils but he was still allowed to the party. Ds & I along with other mums think this party is making other children feel they are not rewarded for their good behaviour along with the fact that even when naughty these 4 kids get rewarded. Your opinions on this would be great

She was let down by the school, particularly by her class teacher and unfortunately she had the same teacher for 2 years.

We did consider moving her but she was torn, she didn't want to move from her best friend and she got on brilliantly with the boys in her class. Of course we would get assurances that it would stop and it would calm down for a while so we would think it was sorted. Basically it escalated and the last term of primary school was the worst and that was when one of these girls tried to drown her on a school trip. I have to say her attendance was appalling as we frequently couldn't get her to school as she was so upset. This was hidden by the school.

Her happiest time at the school was a term when her teacher was in hospital and then recovering from surgery. She had a supply teacher who didn't stand for their behaviour, allowed my daughter to "help" her with job if she didn't want to be outside at break/lunchtime and who gave my daughter extra work. One of my saddest times was when my daughter excitedly told me the teacher didn't think she was a nuisance. I said I hoped she was never a nuisance and she said her normal teacher called her a nuisance every day because she always finished her maths sheet too quickly. What a message to a bright, enthusiastic, well motivated child.

The teacher was actually a bully as well and I believe she colluded in some of the behaviour and yes I am angry and bitter and it was nearly 20 years ago. I don't normally think about it but this thread has brought it all back.

granny with respect, I do not think this thread is really about bullying per se. No one would deny bullying needs to stop and teachers need to take steps to prevent it.

This thread however refers to some children who are 'badly behaved' or 'naughty', as perceived by other children, receiving a 'reward' when what they are receiving could actually be an intervention for their SN.

My DC was considered 'naughty' by other children for:

1. not standing in line properly
2. not finishing work (which was not differentiated according to my DC's specific needs. i.e. lots of handwriting is difficult if you have problems holding a pencil)
3. not sitting still for an extended period of time on the carpet (hypermobility makes this difficult).

Posters who have experience of SNs and SENs posted to explain how a) the children might not actually behaving 'badly' and b)how the 'reward' might be an intervention for SEN/SN.

Yes, the conversation meandered and digressed and covered violent outbursts that extreme stress from SNs and SENs, essentially being mismanaged, can cause.

You see Granny for me, I don't think that children who targeted your dd didn't have problems of their own and you say yourself that the school hinted as much. For my own ds early on he probably didn't know or understand he shouldn't hit because it was an instinctive self preservation reaction. "You've come too close, I need you to go away, you've ignored my scream so I'll do what I know will move you and lash out". Much like when you are sitting watching tv and a big spider lands on your lap.
The school let your dd down by not keeping her safe but from the sounds of it they also let the girls down as well. Not necessarily because they didn't punish them severely or often enough, more because they didn't give them the support they needed to alter their behaviour because no happy, cared for, well adjusted child mounts a systematic campaign of abuse on another child.
I'm guessing that this happened some years ago now because all schools by law have to have anti bullying policies in place and parents can demand that these policies are implemented and schools have to be accountable so hopefully far fewer children are suffering these days.

1nsanityscratching, yes they were all let down but 2 weeks in a new school, one telling off, two calls to their parents to say it wouldn't be tolerated and it was solved. Sorry years of treating them as above the law, rewarding them for the slightest thing whilst ignoring the bad behaviour was useless. That is totally different to children with genuine problems.

I would love to think it is better but I think of the little boy at the school where I volunteer, I mentioned him earlier, he was complaining of being bullied and hurt but it was done sneakily and no one saw it until one day I did. He was sitting quietly on a wall, one of the bullies walked up and pushed him off the wall and call his friends over to join in. I intervened and took the boy to the Head and said what I had seen and the reply, to the child, was, "Were you annoying them." It didn't reassure me.

I hope you son is doing OK. My daughter is in her late 20s and it still affects her. She told me she still won't go and sit with other colleagues at lunchtime unless she is specifically invited as she still has a lingering worry that she will be told she's not wanted. She did have counselling for a while at university but it was too much for her.

I suppose one of my problems, and I am on the verge of tears, is that we didn't protect her. She didn't deserve what happened to her and yes surprise surprise I am angry.

zzzzz, thank you. My daughter is now that very special nurturing teacher and all her pain is put to good use as she works so hard to make sure no child in her care suffers as she did be that from not being challenged by appropriate work, being supported with things they find difficult and not standing for any bullying in her classes. She frequently works a 12 hour day, sometimes longer, she is the teacher with a little gang of troubled kids with her at lunchtime and I am so proud of her.

I don't think that children who targeted your dd didn't have problems of their own

Perhaps they did. Or perhaps they didn't. The old 'all bullies only bully because they have problems' theory has come increasingly under question by psychologists and experts in this area. Plenty of adults will admit that they bullied because it was fun, or to fit in with their peers, and (sometimes) because they didn't have the empathy to understand the harm they were doing, and thus just didn't accept the message that it was harmful. (We know that empathy, on average, tends to develop in adolescence, sometimes quite late.) The myth that all bullies are victims too has caused a great deal of harm, by focusing attention on bullies, not on their victims, and by creating a reluctance to apply the kind of negative consequences that are often need to make bullying stop.

kesstrel, brilliantly explained.

no happy, cared for, well adjusted child mounts a systematic campaign of abuse on another child.

This fails to take into account the point I made about empathy and development above, and the drive many children experience to establish their position in the social hierarchy. Bullying can and does produce social rewards, and for many an enjoyable sense of power. This is not the case for all children, of course, it depends a great deal on personality type But I do not think you will find convincing scientific evidence to support your point.

granny the thing is children with SENs and SNs are one the highest percentage likely to be bullied. Yes, it is often 'sneaky'.

Children will learn the triggers of a child with SNs' anxiety and deliberately provoke them into an outburst.

My own DC has experienced this, to a certain extent. Children would distract and taunt my DC at the lockers because due their fine motor difficulties getting everything in and out of the locker quickly, in a crowded locker space, was an extremely challenging task. My DC then got 'told off' for sitting on the floor, upset. This was flagged up as a 'concern' over my DC's behaviour although they got up straight away when told and really dealing with that was much easier than dealing with the bullies who waited till a teacher was not around.

So you see how it can happen? Children with SENs and SNs being labelled 'naughty' for their needs being mismanaged. Bullies taking advantage of this. I knew of another girl, with autism, who bullies would shout in her ear, to provoke a reaction.

Rockpebblestone, I do understand about SN kids being victims, one of my points on here is that I don't think it is fair to excuse this behaviour by automatically blaming SN as that just makes it harder for SN kids and people automatically associate bad behaviour with SN and it really isn't that simple.

My point is what you describes happens to NT and SN kids and the kids who just seem to enjoy being spiteful and naughty get excused as we have to sympathise with them as they are unhappy. Well the two bullies I am talking about seemed to have their unhappiness cured pretty swiftly when they were told they behaviour had to change.

granny but in the context of this thread, where the 'reward' being complained about, was very likely to be an intervention for SEN/SN, can you see how your focus on bullying leads to bullying and violent behaviour being equated with SNs/SENs?

Because SENs and SNs being mismanaged or not catered for adequately can lead to extreme stress, for the individual concerned, which can cause violent 'flight/fight' reactions, it only compounds the issue of equating SNs and SENs with violence.

Which is what I objected to.

the two bullies I am talking about seemed to have their unhappiness cured pretty swiftly when they were told they behaviour had to change.

granny and i agree with this course of action, where appropriate.

Sometimes children just need to be actually 'told', regarding all sorts of negative behaviours. My DC only had to be 'told' to get up from sitting on the floor by the lockers.

I fully acknowledge in lots of circumstances rules can be kind, such as when a child, for example, does not have the self discipline to decide to get off the computer, which they've been on for hours, and do some reading instead - with consequences (no free computer time the next day) if they don't do this.

But being 'told' is only appropriate when the children actually have enough ability to control their behaviour in order to conform. Some children also need to be reminded more often and supervised more closely as their own impulse control is lacking.

zzzzz, it is difficult and we both have mixed feelings about it. Her best friend, the girl with SN including dyslexia, was very important to her and they are still friends, she got on so well with the boys in her class as well. It was a very unbalanced year group with alot of boys and a small number of girls, these two girls were bright and manipulative and real queen bees if you know what I mean.

One incident that I found very moving was a day I went in to speak to her class teacher about an incident. Teacher turned to the class and called out the girls to speak to them about the incident. When the girls sat down again the boys who were sitting near them all moved their chairs away, it was a moment of solidarity for my daughter and it was important to her. That said if we went back I would move her, the attempted drowning would be reason enough, that the kids did it and that the teacher watched and did nothing.

It is hard.

Rockpebblestone, the OP hasn't said it was SN, just that they were naughty so I don't think I am the one who has associated bad behaviour with SN, in fact I have repeatedly said it isn't fair to make that connection.

The girls I am talking about didn't have SN, I live in a small town, I knew the families, they were bright girls who could behave but chose not to.

So I go back to the original point why are schools rewarding bad behaviour and giving rewards designed to reward good behaviour even when the behaviour is bad. I think there should be zero tolerance on violence, I don't think a child throwing there arms about when scared is violence, and there shouldn't be rewards if another child has been deliberately hurt.

zzzzz, actually the teacher's behaviour was more disturbing than the kids.

zzzzz

It's a little more complex than just 'empathy', true - however, the ability to see things from the other person's perspective, which is an important part of empathy, does develop over adolescence.

The current study supports theoretical notions that perspective taking develops during adolescence as a result of cognitive development. Moreover, the results suggest that pubertal maturation plays a role in boys’ development of empathic concern.

psycnet.apa.org/journals/dev/50/3/881/

Children who have such low self esteem they need to bully to gain status obviously have difficulties.

The 'obvious' belief that all bullies have low self esteem is also now being questioned:

bullies had the lowest levels of depression, the highest levels of self-esteem and the highest social status. They studied 133 students in grades 8-10 at a secondary school in the Vancouver area, comparing psychological health among four groups: bullies, victims, bully/victims and bystanders.

www.today.com/parents/study-bullies-have-higher-self-esteem-social-status-lower-levels-t36271

granny, posters were pointing out, though, that due to the very nature of the activity the OP described, it was extremely likely to be actually an intervention for SENs/SNs not a reward.

As I and others have pointed out in earlier posts, the behaviour OP's DC observed could easily be due to difficulties manifesting as a result of SENs/SNs and not naughty or bad behaviour.

The more posters piled in to say that SENs/SNs cannot be adequately managed in mainstream schools and children with SNs and SENs should go to Special Schools and the needs of children with SENs and SNs should be de-prioritised in order to cater for the needs of NT children. It is common place also to hear of the validity of diagnoses of Autism and ADHD to be questioned.

You must be able to understand why these points are relevant to this thread. (And why people with any expereince of SENs/SNs are sensitive about them).

The thing for me was not that the 'naughty' children got rewarded for things I found easy.

It was that as a 'good' child, sometimes I wasn't rewarded for things I had found hard, because it was assumed that because I was good at some things, I was good at everything.

It was that as a 'good' child it was assumed I was happy even when I asked for help for bullying and depression. I was suicidal at 15.

It was that as a 'good' child when I asked for help academically I was told I had to just get on with it myself.

20 years of depression, mental health issues, feeling inferior and having imposter syndrome, feeling I didn't deserve help if I was struggling because somehow it meant I'd failed. If I couldn't do something at college, uni, work it meant I was stupid and what a failure I was, at 'this level' I should be able to look after myself.

I was a bright compliant child who needed reassurance that it was ok not to know things. By 15 I genuinely believed that the only thing about myself was my ability to get 100% on a test. As you get older and the tests get harder you realise that's not possible but when you are told that you don't qualify for teachers' time to support you at 14 it's pretty scary and demoralising. Never mind the fact I was bullied but because my grades didn't slip there could be nothing wrong.

There should be more recognition that for some children, doing 15 mins sitting still is the achievement, and for some, going and playing in a group with some other children is the achievement, and for some, mastering quadratic equations is the achievement. All the A*s I got at school and one of my biggest achievements was getting on to the year 8 netball team (as an uncool kid who was chronically unsporty with an undiagnosed disability and asthma).

I don't think a child throwing there arms about when scared is violence

granny this type of reaction is commonly perceived as violence, though, by adults never mind children.

Rockpebblestone, so I have to understand your point of view but you don't have to understand my point of view? Sounds familiar...............

People who experience/deal with/have children with SN have to understand that all children have a right to feel safe, cared for and protected. Anything else is counter productive.

I'm leaving this thread as it has brought back alot of buried memories but just want to say to TheCuriousOwl I sympathise and hope you have had some support to overcome your issues.