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Original poster

To think the result of this rape trial is disgusting

999 replies

joystir59 · 17/03/2017 20:48

Man gets off completely Scot=free for raping a 12 year old girl, and that this result gives such a wrong message to men, in a world in which girls are never considered too young anyway. I'm enraged!
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-39305042

OP posts:
Original poster
joystir59 · 17/03/2017 22:45

Perhaps the culture of it being ok to have casual sex is to blame.

OP posts:
lalalalyra · 17/03/2017 22:46

My twins are just turned 14. One of them looks her age, sometimes younger. One dressed up for a party/night out absolutely looks over 18. At 12 she looked 16 easily. Luckily (in some ways) for me the twin who sounds older and can have a more mature conversation is the younger looking one.

My DS is almost 18 and last year he was chatting/flirting with a girl at the youth club and it was only when she told him a funny incident with a maths teacher that he realised she was a much lower year group that she'd suggested.

12 year old girls often don't look 12, and don't act 12. The fact that serving police officers didn't bat an eyelid at this girl tells you that she didn't just have on some make up and sexy clothes. The judge has made very clear that this is an exceptional case. It's not an invitation to men to start having sex with 12 year olds. People should be held accountable for the fact she was out having sex that night, but he shouldn't get all the blame imo. He's held his hand up to his part, where are her guardians?

ImNotReallyReal · 17/03/2017 22:46

I could easily pass as 18 when I was 12. I used to buy alcohol for people and my mum let me go clubbing at 13...go figure? I told men I was 18 and worked in a bank, they believed me. I'd love to be able to post a picture of myself aged 13 on this thread, I'd have easily passed as 25. I have photos of myself in clubs drinking with a full face of makeup, highlighted blond hair and very revealing clothing. All paid for by my mother!

I got on a bus in my school uniform one day, and the driver who I knew (because I got the night bus regularly) asked if I was in fancy dress - he was shocked, actually horrified. I looked and acted way older than my age. It wasn't until I got into my mid 20s that I realised that I wasn't meant to be acting 10 years older than I was.

My parents just expected me to be an adult from about 10 years old. I guess it was easy for them not to look after a child.

ScarletFever · 17/03/2017 22:49

On the subject of him being raped
'Not raped. but... maybe the right would would be coerced? Plus, there's the whole issue of his reputation being tarnished etc.'

Just thinking, but if he thought he was having consensual sex with an adult (16 ur old) and he wasn't, then technically was he raped? As he wasn't having sex with who/what he thought he was
(Like the case of the girl who thought she was dating a boy, who turned out to be a girl.....sorry I cannot find the case online to link to?)

I know the 12 yr old has been failed by pretty much everyone in her life so far, and am placing no blame on her by this thought

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 17/03/2017 22:49

God, I'mnotReally - whatever was your mother thinking?? And your father for that matter - mine was of the Victorian cast, where make up was "muck on your face" and revealing clothing was an absolute no-no, so I can't imagine a parent being the way yours were!

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 17/03/2017 22:50

imnotreally

Some children are made to grow up much too early

x2boys · 17/03/2017 22:50

there will be people up and down the country having casual sex tonight with people they have just met i have done it myself in my single clubbing days i was old enough to consent however .

DickToPhone · 17/03/2017 22:51

The law makes an arbitrary distinction between 12 years and 364 days and 13 years and zero days. If he had sex with the girl on her 13th birthday, then he could be found not guilty of any offence, on the basis that he reasonably believed she was 16 or over.

However there is an arbitrary cut-off whereby this is not a defence and you are guilty.

Here is a similar case. webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xuKub9BGChkJ:www.dorkingandleatherheadadvertiser.co.uk/man-sentenced-community-order-admitting-sex-acts/story-21000770-detail/story.html

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 17/03/2017 22:51

As the legal definition of rape in the UK involves the insertion of a penis, it means that the bloke in this scenario wasn't raped at all. You could argue that he might have been sexually assaulted, but he wasn't raped.

ZackyVengeance · 17/03/2017 22:53

gosh, i hope the girls parents are having the book thrown at them,

FireSquirrel · 17/03/2017 22:57

OP you sound like a broken record. The girl TOLD him she was 16. She LOOKED at least 16 if not older, one witness said as old as 20. What was he supposed to do, ask for her birth certificate? We're not talking about a 12 year old who could maybe pass for 13 or 14, we're talking about someone who looked well above her years (so much so that even the police didn't suspect she was underage), who claimed to be much older than her actual age and who willingly consented to sex. What happened was wrong but it's not rape as we usually understand it, there's a world of difference between forcibly raping someone or intentionally having sex with someone underage and having consensual sex with someone you genuinely believed to be old enough to consent. The teenager is as much a victim in this as the girl, this will no doubt blight his life. Horrible.

Ginkypig · 17/03/2017 22:59

1horatio

I assumed it was to me Smile

And your right, if she had been older but still under 16 it would have been similar to what you've described. I think I'm not an expert.

And again your right the law we grow up with is what influences our behaviour and reactions to the situations we hear.

I'm glad the outcome was what it was as under that law he faced up to life in prison.

The judge acknowledged the serious nature of what had happened, she didn't diminish the importance of that particular law in protecting children (because this law takes away the defence used by many sex offenders of basically making out even young victims were willing participants) while at the same time taking into account the very unusual circumstances of this particular case.

PurpleMinionMummy · 17/03/2017 22:59

Perhaps the law will be reviewed now? It obviously recognises those aged 13-15 could lie about their age and be very believable, hence why a defendant would have to 'not reasonably believe they are 16 or over' to commit an offence. I guess the law never thought such an issue would arise with anyone under 13.

Olympiathequeen · 17/03/2017 23:03

This was a genuine error based on lies the girl told and her ability to look 16. It's absurd to say if you dress a 12 year old up in sexy clothes she will pass for 16. Some will and some will look like they've been in the dressing up box.

She may not officially be able to 'consent' but how on earth was the young man to know that? And what you are saying is regardless of all the evidence he should be found guilty to make an example of him because he should have known something is didn't and couldn't? Crazy.

Of course it is tragic that a girl so young should seek out and enter into a sexual relationship and to lie to achieve this end. Parenting, society, the internet?

OneSecondAfter · 17/03/2017 23:04

Thankfully, the justice system's view is not as black and white as the OP's.

TheFallenMadonna · 17/03/2017 23:04

Again, he is guilty.

1horatio · 17/03/2017 23:15

Just thinking, but if he thought he was having consensual sex with an adult (16 ur old) and he wasn't, then technically was he raped? As he wasn't having sex with who/what he thought he was
(Like the case of the girl who thought she was dating a boy, who turned out to be a girl.....sorry I cannot find the case online to link to?)

That is imo a supremely bad idea.

Ginkypig

"I'm glad the outcome was what it was as under that law he faced up to life in prison."

Yes, I definitely agree with that.

"The judge acknowledged the serious nature of what had happened, she didn't diminish the importance of that particular law in protecting children (because this law takes away the defence used by many sex offenders of basically making out even young victims were willing participants) while at the same time taking into account the very unusual circumstances of this particular case"

Yes. that is very important.
Judges should have a certain degree of flexibility. But I do think that concepts like statutory rape etc where the victim just can't consent should definitely not be abolished because of cases like that.

It would take away the protection the most vulnerable in our society need.

Also because of legal-political reasons...

But more protection for alleged perpetrators may be a good thing to establish.

ICancelledTheCheque · 17/03/2017 23:16

DH nicknamed me jailbait after seeing photos of me at 14. I looked mid 20s.

If he knew she was 12 that would be different. At 15 I was dating guys in their late 20s who had no idea I was ten years younger than I'd said I was.

fermentedvaper · 17/03/2017 23:27

When I was 14 I would sneak out after my parents had gone to bed (the would have been horrified if they had known). I would travel into the local town and go clubbing. The preferred club only allowed over 21s in and anyone suspected of being under 21 would be asked for ID. I got in every time with no ID.

One time I met a guy and we arranged to meet at a later date. On this meeting, while in his car I accidentally let slip my real age. The look on his face was of pure terror. He dropped me home and never contacted me again. Up until me accidentally revealing my age he genuinely believed me to be in my 20s. So, if I had not let slip my age, and we had engaged in sexual activity, should he have been guilty of rape? Absolutely not.

Should my parents have been guilty of neglect? No, they had no idea that I was not safely tucked up in bed. Making judgements while not in possession of the full facts of the case is wrong. The judge examined the facts and made the right call.

ICancelledTheCheque · 17/03/2017 23:30

Oh and when I was 13, I went to an over 21 nightclub in the US without ID.

The right decision was made in this case.

MipMipMip · 17/03/2017 23:33

The idea of was he raped is an interesting one (I know that legally he can't have been because no penis was interred but I'm going to use the word rape for ease).

We know that obtaining sex by deception, normally lying on an online profile, is classed as rape. Also someone to have sex in one way, such as with a condom, and that to do something else, no condom, could also be considered rape.

So he agreed to have sex with a 16 year old. She obtained sex by deception. That would surely count as rape to my mind.

Please note I'm not for a moment suggesting she should be prosecuted. To my mind neither should he - he took due care and attention to prevent sleeping with someone underage. He cannot be blamed for this. The prosecution was technical only.

15 years ago I was going out clubbing underage. Everyone I knew did. We were there as IDing became compulsory and the year below was getting fakes. Do what you can to prevent people going out underage but don't be naive (or forgetful!) enough to think that it doesn't happen if you have good parents. You'll get some nasty surprises a few years down the line!

Luisanna · 17/03/2017 23:37

Do you have a son op?

RJnomore1 · 17/03/2017 23:37

Ffs. At 12 she is legally incapable of consent therefore legally incapable of rape.

He was the fucking adult people. He was.

And of course girls -and boys - sneak out under age. That's why the law is there to protect them.

I'm appalled tonight.

Do I think he's a rapist? Yes.

Do I thinkjailing him would have had a purpose? Maybe sending a message to others who may not be careless but actually deliberately abusive?

funnylikeaclown · 17/03/2017 23:42

Just a shrug?

Just a shrug to the possibility that he could have been jailed, labelled a sex-offender, life ruined, because of someone's lie?

Just a shrug? I'm appalled at that.

AssassinatedBeauty · 17/03/2017 23:45

I'm appalled at some of the comments and attitudes on this thread towards a 12 year old child who cannot consent to sex.