To think the result of this rape trial is disgusting

[joystir59]

Man gets off completely Scot=free for raping a 12 year old girl, and that this result gives such a wrong message to men, in a world in which girls are never considered too young anyway. I'm enraged!
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-39305042

Elendon

You should be careful about what you say. I'm not a rape apologist. I'm not defending the guy - he clearly did something wrong. ALL I was doing is agreeing with someone who said that puberty is starting younger, which it is.

I'm in no way advocating rape, lowering the age of consent or anything like that. In fact, I'm actually in favour of raising it to 18 so that it's in line with other things like drinking and joining the army - things we consider adult.

You should realise that the world is not black and white. And like someone else said - 99 times out of 100 this would have been rape, a custodial sentence and that would be perfectly right. However, in this case there were mitigating factors at play and the judge had to take those into account.

If you don't want me teaching your children then that's your own decision and I respect it. However, that's because you see the world in a black and white way, whilst many of us do not.

I don't think stating puberty is starting earlier which is a recognised fact is rape apology? It does leave us needing to find a way to ensure that vulnerable children whose bodies are developing more wuickly than their emotions are protected and that people realise it's firmly possible - and I will say especially for girls wearing make up - that they are younger than they look, and that sadists should proceed with appropriate caution when choosing sexual partners.

THIS

Elendon

It's fascinating in the same way as I find why some people are immune to certain diseases are fascinating. It's medical science and it shows that our bodies are evolving in a certain way.

Of course, the real-world implications are worrying, but any doctor or person with medical training will tell you that it's an interesting subject to discuss and theorise. It's why many people are conducting research into it - the world is looking for reasons to explain it.

Elendon I'm done talking to you. You are deliberately twisting people's words and suggesting things about people.

It is fact that children are starting puberty younger. And yes, that is interesting and I seek answers because we as teachers have to be able to explain it to a child who is developing quickly, we also have to be able to have safeguards in place to make sure that child is not exploited or put in danger due to it.

I wasn't suggesting anything but your defensive replies to me suggest you feel you need to defend yourself.

You have gone from fascinating to interesting.

And you are 'done talking to me'. You didn't engage with me in the first place to have a discussion.

Again, my comment said absolutely nothing about my 'whole attitude to sex' - no idea how commenting factually about how 'He had sex with someone he didn't know, who he just met & had no way to know for certain that she was as old as she claimed' gives much away about how I feel personally about sex.

I think it says more about your attitude towards young girls that you can so easily excuse a man who has had sex with a 12 yr old on the basis she looked older. You even say yourself that once you talk to them and know them (as I do, teaching them regularly) it's obvious they are not the age they look So, you yourself accept that it's entirely possible to determine how young someone actually is beyond their looks but yet you think a man can be excused from such effort when it comes to having sex because it's being too puritanical uptight to put that level of responsibility on mens shoulders? Even when the risk is a rape conviction?

Another thought is that the law should be tightened to require adults to have taken all reasonable steps to ascertain age, and specify that this requires some kind of third party assurance (such as knowing the person in a social context) or that their appearance leaves no possible doubt that they are over 16 (i.e. They clearly look no less than mid-20s)
So at 18 or 21, a woman needs to seek permission from another person before she is allowed to have sex?
That's as absurd as the ID card.

12 year olds don't act like 16 years old, but that would require a conversation and not just sex
Maybe a typical 12 year old, but then a typical 12 year old wouldn't be out clubbing at 4am. This girl didn't act like a 12 year old. That's why all the adults she came into contact with believed she was older.

There are thousands of young girls in that situation, Rotherham anyone?? There always will be so I don't think it helps to focus on why this young girl was out in the middle of the night, that's a bit like the 'dont drink too much, you might get raped' message.
It's nothing like that! It's not blaming her or excusing men from taking reasonable steps to assess a person's age, it is a perfectly reasonable question to ask what has gone wrong and is continuing to go wrong that results in 12-year-old girls being out clubbing at 4am. A parent or carer is responsible for that girl. Something has gone very wrong there and that needs investigating.

Elendon

You realise fascinating and interesting both basically mean the same thing right? I'm a teacher. I also have to teach sex education. I find it fascinating/interesting because I want to give students an answer to their questions. Right now, if they ask why they are developing quicker than before science says they should, I can only give them theories. I want to give them actual reasons.

If I'm defensive, it's because you have called me a rape apologist and said I shouldn't be teaching. Do you not think that would make you defensive too?

It is not a fact that children are starting puberty younger.

Please can we put that to rest. It has always happened. In some parts of the world where chemicals are not taken from the drinking water system, some children are seen to be entering puberty earlier. It is not a world wide crisis. If it was, I think the WHO would have something to say about it.

A parent or carer is responsible for that girl. Something has gone very wrong there and that needs investigating.

Why shouldn't it be investigated that 19 year old teenagers are raping 12 year old girls? This is seriously wrong and needs investigating.

PlectrumElectrum

Yes, in my opinion it is easy to know they are not the age they look. However, after reading the stuff related to this case, I'm willing to believe it may be different in this situation, as all the witnesses who testified said she looked older, including the police officers who were looking for a 12 year old and had a full conversation with her, thinking she was about 18.

My opinion on this case does not have any link to my opinions on the subject as a whole. I just think in this case it had a lot of mitigating factors, as did the judge.

Also, I'm not defending the guy. I think what he did was wrong and he has rightly been charged as a rapist. I personally raise my children that sex should be in a loving and mutually fulfilling relationship, not just someone you meet on the street without knowing. However, I understand that is legally acceptable to do this.

Fascinating engrossing, captivating, absorbing, interesting, enchanting, beguiling, bewitching, enthralling, enrapturing, entrancing, spellbinding, transfixing, riveting, mesmerizing, hypnotizing, engaging, compelling, compulsive, gripping, thrilling; alluring, tempting, enticing, irresistible, tantalizing, seductive; charming, attractive, intriguing, delightful, diverting, entertaining, amusing; informalunputdownable
"a fascinating story"

That's a google search of fascinating.

Elendon there is a reasonable body of reputable research that says it is happening though.

It's actually a bit of a rd hearing for this issue.

It is not a fact that children are starting puberty younger.

In some parts of the world where chemicals are not taken from the drinking water system, some children are seen to be entering puberty earlier.

I think the WHO would have something to say about it.

something a bit like

"This period has seen many changes over the past century namely the earlier onset of puberty, later age of marriage, urbanization, global communication, and changing sexual attitudes and behaviors."

Elendon can you find anything that says puberty isn't ealier and has stayed the same over the last 30 years?

Elendon - oh look, "interesting" is fourth in your list of synonyms for "fascinating".

Anyway, I'm done with this subject. It was interesting but it's quite clear there are strong opinions on this (and I'm glad of that!) - let's just be civil, eh?

Like I've said - I want the victim to have good support around her, as this has the potential to have long-term effects. However, I think both sides of the argument (mine included) need to sit down and think what we can do to stop this kind of thing from happening.

We need to teach our kids that casual sex is not something they should be aiming for. That both boys and girls don't need to pretend to look older than they are. That it's quite acceptable to be a child and that you don't need to grow up immediately or before you're ready. We should stop making drinking look glamorous and sexy, and the same goes for casual anonymous sex too. There needs to be a focus on safe sex, and how sex should be in a relationship where both partners are loving and mutually fulfilled - that you trust the other person and you know they are not lying you or manipulating you.

And, I also think the age of consent should be 18 in line with other 'adult' things. I'm not sure why you can get married and have sex at 16, but you can't join the army or give blood.

I haven't read the whole thread, but do think that the newspapers are responsible for some of the reactions on here. "man gets off after raping 12 year old" is just inflammatory isn't factually correct - he was cleared of rape. He is innocent. Imagine if this was your 19 year old son who thought he'd just met a 16/17 year old girl. Wouldn't you be absolutely enraged that he was being tried for rape? I know I would be.

It's not the child's fault; she's clearly been let down by her parents/carers or she wouldn't be out on the town at 4 am.

But it's certainly not the man's fault either.

So, OP, I think it's the newspapers sending out the wrong message, not the courts.

Boris

He was not cleared of rape. He was found guilty. Then he was discharged without sentence.

It takes me all of about 1 minute to ascertain the age.

Easy to claim, but I seriously query whether that would stand up if put to the test. Particularly if you were yourself a fairly immature 19 year old.

Why? It's the age of consent, and he was only three years older. Ridiculous thing to say, really.

It's ridiculous of me to say that I don't think a 19 year old should take a 16 year old home for sex who he just met in a taxi queue?? I would hope my future 19 year olds wouldn't do the same.

I don't think it is ridiculous at all for a few reasons. A 16 year old is still very very young and a 19 year old is a young adult and again, I would expect a 19 year old to show better judgment and care. Also, everyone knows people lie to get into bars and that girls often look much older than they already are so he was a complete fool.

So no, I don't think it is ridiculous to say it's a bit grim for a 19 year old to pick up a 16 year old, take her home and have sex with her. Age of consent is 16 yes but morally it is not a decent thing to do IMO.

Anyway, that's probably another thread entirely.

U2HasTheEdge

I agree with you. Personally, I'd find it seedy if my 19yo were picking up people in taxi queues who were 16. To me, that's morally wrong. Legally however it's not illegal. It's why I'm glad I'm not a lawyer - there's such a huge chasm between what is morally correct and what's actually legal.

It takes me all of about 1 minute to ascertain the age

The naïveté of MN leaves me gasping sometimes. Let me take you by the hand.........

Girls in these situations are not your normal 12 yr olds. If they were the bouncers, the shop keepers, the police, the taxi drivers, the judge would identify this. These are massively complex cases. 1 minute to ascertain age is a laughable comment.

"I don't think it is ridiculous at all for a few reasons. A 16 year old is still very very young and a 19 year old is a young adult and again, I would expect a 19 year old to show better judgment and care. Also, everyone knows people lie to get into bars and that girls often look much older than they already are so he was a complete fool. "

Eh, my 9-year-old daughter is more mature than my 14-year-old son.

I don't think 19 & 16 is anything wrong.

And the implication that the 16-year-old is an innocent virgin being taken advantage of by a 19-year-old seems a little sexist. A lot of girls have been having sex with blind eyes turned for several years by that point.

If you want to stop 19 year olds having sex with 16 year olds you need a blanket, 'lock them up' policy for 16 year olds & 15 year olds as well.

I don't think there's any kind of consensus on Mumsnet for 14 and 15 years old to be imprisoned for having sex is there???

There is a grey area whereby the age of consent is 16, but nothing ever happens to say a 16 & 15 year old couple.

"He was not cleared of rape. He was found guilty. Then he was discharged without sentence."

No, he pleaded guilty.

Different thing.

It's possible he could have been found not guilty. (Although not on the facts, but sometimes juries refuse to convict.)

Ok Dick I'll rephrase.

He was not cleared of rape, he was guilty. Then he was discharged without sentence.

Better?