Page 26 | To think the result of this rape trial is disgusting

joystir59 · 2017-03-17T20:48:32+00:00

Man gets off completely Scot=free for raping a 12 year old girl, and that this result gives such a wrong message to men, in a world in which girls are never considered too young anyway. I'm enraged! [[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-39305042]]

PlectrumElectrum · 18/03/2017 15:04

There are too many excuses built into the social discourse around sex for men to evade normal social responsibility if sex is on the table, far too many excuses, far too many people ready to take pretty implausible explanations as fact.

^^ this. 100%

Trifleorbust · 18/03/2017 15:08

RJnomore1:

Attempting to have sex with someone isn't wrong, though, is it? You talk about sex between two consenting people as if it is a disgusting act where one of them is the victim. What's so wrong with sex?

TedEriksen · 18/03/2017 15:09

Yes, how could an adult possibly know they were dealing with a child?

That wasn't the question. The question was how is a reasonable attempt to ascertain age demonstrated after the fact - what proof or evidence woulkd you deem acceptable? A number of third parties were clear that the girl could reasonably have been assumed to be 16 or over - this was good enough for a judge to mitigate during sentencing, but seemingly not for you.

Megatherium · 18/03/2017 15:11

Really? They were assigned tasks as part of their job which they failed on several counts.
Got her age wrong

It's not the job of the police to be precisely about the age of every person they speak to. They don't have a right to demand ID from everyone they meet during the course of their duties.

Got the age of other underage girls they were meant to be assessing wrong

There is no suggestion of that in the report.

Missed that a specific girl they were looking for was there

It doesn't say that in the report, either.

Didn't enforce the law or safeguarding regarding underage drinking

How could they have done that? There is no suggestion that they witnessed the purchase of alcohol or the drinking, nor indeed that they would have known that his girl had been drinking.

So what did they do wrong, Graphista?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 18/03/2017 15:16

A number of third parties were clear that the girl could reasonably have been assumed to be 16 or over -

The taxi driver and the police were not anticipating having sex with her. The taxi driver in particular probably gave her no more than a passing glance. I am not in any way seeking to criticise him but I don't honestly think much weight should attach to what he said.

RJnomore1 · 18/03/2017 15:22

Trifle I AM disgusted at someone attempting to have sex with a 12 year old and quite rightly so.

it doesn't matter if a taxi driver thinks someone is a different age. Police I would argue should be more aware but I'm sure they are dealing internally with any issues raised.

However if I'm an adult attempting to have sex with someone who I think is just legal to do so with then maybe I need to stop and think again. In case, yknow, she's lying...

Teenage girls have been lying about their age for years. It shouldn't come as any surprise to young men (or other young women). It seems exciting to be grown up. Part of the reason the laws are there are to protect them from themselves as they do not have the emotional maturity at 12 to understand the consequences of their actions. Anyone who argues otherwise is putting up a defence for paedophilia.

I don't think this man is a paedophile btw in that he is attracted but I do think he commited an act of paedophilia. And he was reckless in not ensuring he did not penetrate someone whom the law says cannot consent.

RJnomore1 · 18/03/2017 15:23

Attracted to children that should say.

HandbagCrab · 18/03/2017 15:25

Its in everyone's interests to say she looked and acted older. The shopkeeper who sold her alcohol, the police on the look out for underage girls out, the taxi driver who took her somewhere she didn't know with an adult she didn't know, the man who had sex with her. All personally or professionally have to look carefully at their judgement which is sorely lacking and negligent in some cases.

There's millions of adults in the uk that people can have consensual sex with. 12 year olds dressing up and pretending to be a grown up can be easily left well alone.

Increasinglymiddleaged · 18/03/2017 15:25

At that age, I think he should be expected to assume she's underage unless he has good reason to believe otherwise.

I agree, young men are taking a risk having sex with a girl they don't know who claims to be 16/17.

This case needs to be discussed in every secondary school across the country. I can see the argument of 'he believed x' yadda yadda but he ended up in court and has a conviction for rape which will bar him from many careers I imagine. So young men understand what the repercussions can potentially be.

But I think yabu op, he hasn't done anything that many other teenagers will have done this weekend. The difference is that V the girl who said she was 16 was 12 rather than actually being 16.

JustAnotherSilentOldNumber · 18/03/2017 15:26

Its in everyone's interests to say she looked and acted older. The shopkeeper who sold her alcohol, the police on the look out for underage girls out, the taxi driver who took her somewhere she didn't know with an adult she didn't know, the man who had sex with her.

And the judge herself???

Increasinglymiddleaged · 18/03/2017 15:27

Sorry it was an absolute discharge, I bet it would still show up on an enhanced crb though.

JustAnotherSilentOldNumber · 18/03/2017 15:27

I mean why woudl the Judge be in on it?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 18/03/2017 15:27

He shouldn't have been having sex with a 16 year old in the first place

in your opinion. 16 is the age of consent in the U.K. I really can't get worked up about 16 year olds having concencensual sex with 17, 18 or 19 year olds.

12 year olds don't act like 16 years old, but that would require a conversation and not just sex

I agree with this point. ^^

JustAnotherSilentOldNumber · 18/03/2017 15:29

12 year olds don't act like 16 years old, but that would require a conversation and not just sex

Which raise the question, why didn't the police pick up on this.

Megatherium · 18/03/2017 15:30

12 year olds don't act like 16 years old, but that would require a conversation and not just sex

The police spoke to her for some time and had no concerns about her age. Plus, he did have a conversation with her in the taxi, and the taxi driver thought she was 20.

He shouldn't have been having sex with a 16 year old in the first place.

Why? It's the age of consent, and he was only three years older. Ridiculous thing to say, really.

remoaniac · 18/03/2017 15:31

He was still convicted. That will be punishment enough as there will be a lot of jobs closed to him. And he won't be able to volunteer in future eg if he has kids and he wants to become a scout leader.

I think he's been punished enough. He didn't need to go to jail.

And despite hypocritically commenting above, I think the judge knows a lot more than we do, and made an informed decision that we should not be commenting on as we were not in court, do not have her qualifications and frankly, have zero idea.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 18/03/2017 15:31

And the judge herself???

What was she judging from ? The way the girl looked on CCTV? As opposed to having a conversation with a person she was contemplating having sex with.

Nothing to do with being " in on it" - looking at images with no live interaction is completely different from being in close live physical , intimate and exclusive contact

Megatherium · 18/03/2017 15:33

A rapists career success has NOTHING to do with rape.

The judge didn't suggest it was. It was in the context of a general discussion of the man's background and character. That is relevant to sentencing for obvious reasons.

JustAnotherSilentOldNumber · 18/03/2017 15:33

What was she judging from ?

We don't actually know.... But presumably the girl had a statment taken, the Cab had CCTV, the shop had CCTV and so on.

Unless we have the full facts we have to assume the judge did her job correctly.

noeffingidea · 18/03/2017 15:34

justanother it would really depend on the depth of conversation and what is deemed to be adult conversation. There are plenty of adults around who are emotionally immature and basically operating at the level of a 12 year old (or even younger).

TedEriksen · 18/03/2017 15:34

This case needs to be discussed in every secondary school across the country. I can see the argument of 'he believed x' yadda yadda but he ended up in court and has a conviction for rape which will bar him from many careers I imagine. So young men understand what the repercussions can potentially be.

That's a good idea, and cases such as these should be discussed as part of sex and relationships education in schools. Not in a 'Charlie Says...' scaremongering way, but in terms of taking reasonable steps to protect yourself and your prospective partner - legally, emotionally, morally, etc. Once it's done it's done, and the law can only pick up the pieces.

Moussemoose · 18/03/2017 15:34

12 year olds don't act like 16 years old, but that would require a conversation and not just sex

In your world they don't. In a normal, looked after world they don't. However, in some places they do. Yes they really, really do, and that is heartbreaking. Girls in these circumstances are very complicated cases that defy people with years of experience. Don't worry MN can sort it out!

The ignorance of people on these boards that think they know better and could do better than people who are specifically trained to deal with this is astounding.

JustAnotherSilentOldNumber · 18/03/2017 15:36

This case needs to be discussed in every secondary school across the country.

I think everyone can agree on this.

Andrewofgg · 18/03/2017 15:38

coconuttella Oddly enough a Private Peer's Bill to raise the age of marriage and c.p. (in England and Wales only) to 18 has just passed the House of Lords but I don't see it passing the Commons where any one Member can block it!

HandbagCrab · 18/03/2017 15:38

Well everyone in the case was falling over themselves to say how adult this 12 year old child was, I don't see how or why the judge would be any different.

I really disagree that adults should be sleeping with 16 year olds as a matter of course. Let 16 year olds be teens rather than expecting them to instanty be able to navigate adult situations that many adults struggle with e.g. one night stands involving strangers and alcohol. And 12 year olds should have no responsibility in these situations at all.