Judge's warning to drunk women

[FirstShinyRobe]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39233617

AIBU to think she had a marvellous platform with her retirement speech to issue instead a warning to men not to rape women?

what's the point in carrying on a discussion when 'inane' responses such as mine are deemed worthless because I happen to think MEN SHOULDN'T BE RAPING WOMEN IN THE FIRST PLACE

Jess, of course I agree with this. They should not, but that's not a solution. You're just saying 'it should not be happening- people should not be behaving in this way'. However, they do and despite us living in a more enlightened era, sexual assault stats are not going down and we have new ways of hurting women, such as revenge porn. That judge will have seen countless rape victims having to go through the ordeal of giving evidence and sadly sometimes not get a conviction because they had been drinking. Rather than saying that it was their fault, she probably wants to save women from going through the utter hell that is rape, a trial and the rest of your life. I feel the same about revenge porn- I would advise women never to send nude pictures. Not because it's their fault that some sick fuck puts them on the internet, but because I would be so utterly mortified if it happened to me and I would much rather it didn't happen than that the offender got punished.

theworld

There's no definitive answer to that question.

melj that is horrific 😢

melj1213

Seriously though, why is this world full of scumbags?

We can tell people not to commit crimes but it's unlikely to make a difference to how many do it.

We can tell people how to reduce the chances of them being victims of crime and we will usually have some perceptible degree of success.

Telling those people how to be safer doesn't make them 100% safe or make it their own fault if they ignore the advice and become the victim of a crime.

I have taught both of my daughters strategies to keep themselves safe. That does not mean I blame my daughter for being raped. Neither did I expect that using those strategies would keep them 100% safe. Nothing I had taught my daughter could have kept her safe but that doesn't mean I did the wrong thing.

Making women aware of situations in which they could be more vulnerable to sexual assault does not equate to saying that they are at fault if they are attacked.

What does need to change is the willingness of the police to prosecute rapists. There is a rapist out there right now in a position of influence over a lot of young and vulnerable women. Those women might have been safer if the police had been willing to prosecute him.

sibys
What the judge says is probably correct in terms of sheer pragmatism, but until our courts are free of victim-blaming in rape cases, these sorts of statements aren't helpful when it comes to combatting rape culture.

I do think you may be right.

In the case of the poor young student who was allegedly raped by two rather older post-graduate rowers, who videoed and sent out the video of themselves having sex with her, and who were clearly trophy-hunting predators of the most vile kind at the very least, the defence said that the girl was just drunk enough to have lowered her inhibitions and flirted/consented. They were acquitted. In every drunken student rape case I have read of, the men were acquitted.

Telling a man who's capable of raping a woman - no don't rape women is unfortunately unlikely to do fuck all sadly.

I don't understand what's wrong with warning women to try and not put themselves in vulnerable situations. It doesn't mean in any way that they are in any way to blame if something happens to them.

I'd rather one young girl reads that and it stops her for example walking home alone after a night out then go through that horror.

But why?

I don't know, TheWorld, but I do think that some people's personalities prevent them from feeling empathy towards others. It's not the fault of their parents or of society- most men find the idea of rape abhorrent. However, there will always and have always been people who lie, cheat, steal, beat others and take advantage of the vulnerable. They often appear utterly charming.

If you disagree, do you have any ideas on how rape can be stopped?

alltogether Of course I didn't suggest you think that! I completely understand why you would want to give your daughter advice on staying safe - and sadly, that DOES involve advising her not to get too drunk. It just pisses me off that, as the OP said, the spotlight isn't on male behaviour. There will always be vulnerable women, be they very young /old/alone/disabled - and there will always be men who spot them. It just annoys me that it's women who are supposed to change their behaviour and not men. I just can't see how "don't let yourself become a victim" is ever a better stance than "let's stop this happening by letting men know there are NO excuses"

theworld

It's not full of scumbags, there are plenty of lovely decent people out there that go unnoticed and I like to think they out number the scumbags.

If alcohol is to blame for sexual assaults - maybe we should blame pubs and bars for selling it, and also the government for profiteering from alcohol sales.
Of course we could just blame the rapists who plan and carry out these appalling crimes!

I feel the same sort of shudder when "women only" carriages on public transport is suggested. Why on earth should they be necessary? Should we also have women only shops, cafes etc, as some men can't control their violent behaviour? Mad.

Meij
I am so sorry you were all alone that night and were raped. That was terrible.

It's not the police who don't prosecute Goldmandra, it's CPS. And they have to make a decision based on a likelihood of conviction. The sad fact is that trying to convince a jury to find someone guilty of rape is bloody hard, and our justice system is heavily weighted in favour of the defendant. As long as that remains the case, conviction rates for rape will remain low.

I totally agree with you that telling people how to be safer is not the same as blaming them. I am a rape detective, all I want to do is put rapists in prison. I would still advise female friends/relatives etc about staying safe. They cannot control the behaviour of others. I have a two year old son and as he grows up I will be teaching him about consent, about respect for his partner etc.

I have had cases in front of this judge and can say with confidence that she does not in any way blame women who are victims of such cases. She is an incredibly fair judge. She says herself that women are entitled to drink as much as they like. But it would be remiss not to warn women that there are predators out there.

So how exactly are we going to eradicate rape so that women can go out all night and wander through deserted parks naked and horribly drunk in the absolute certainty that they would never be targeted by some scumbag? Nobody has ever been able to satisfactorily explain to me how we are going to go about this.

And until there is a genuine tried and tested way of eradicating it which is proven to work then it is sensible to take steps to prevent it happening to you. And yes it is sensible for girls and women to be advised how they can do this.

I honestly think people who don't want these warnings made don't actually give two shits about rape victims and possibly even in some warped way want other women to get raped because it reinforces their world view. They just seem to see rape victims as collateral damage for their ideology. They know we don't live in an ideal world where rape can be stopped, but even though we don't they're happy to pretend that we do. I just can't stand the 'Oh well a rapist is going to rape somebody so it might as well be your daughter, don't tell her how she can stay safe, she's going to take one for the team'.

As someone said, it's usually someone that a woman knows. We don't urge women to stay in relationships with sexually coercive partners 'because he just shouldn't be raping you'. We don't tell women who have colleagues or acquaintances that make them uncomfortable that they should be letting them into their flats or hotel rooms because if they don't then they're implying that if they did it would be their fault if they got raped. So why on earth does this one thing of alcohol which we know makes you vulnerable (purely because it affects your capability and judgement) is the one thing we will tell girls they should do even though we know it's a risk factor?

jinglejess

I've been in the company of a man who has been accused of raping a woman before the alleged rape occurred. Before I'd ever heard of the allegation against him (which I don't think was reported to the police) I wouldn't have wanted to be alone with him. You know that feeling you just get with some people? Uhhhhh he made my skin crawl yet he was so popular with all "the lads" I'd sooner have kicked him in the balls than spent a minute alone with him even in a crowded pub.

I want my daughter to (hopefully) recognise her instinct like I did and be so goddamn careful about the situations she puts herself in.

Sorry I don't know if that made sense?

He was accused of taping someone after I'd been in his company...that's a better sentence construction!

Coldilox. That's a really interesting and well worded post.

I think Kewcumber has it right - all the Judge's comments amount to are saying if you're not drunk you reduce the risk that you'll be raped - be it hardly helps given the clear inference is it'll be someone else instead.

But I really don't think she's missed some great opportunity/platform to deplore the behaviour of rapist. The remarks only made national media because they were controversial, otherwise the reports would likely not have made it beyond the Manchester or maybe North West press. Judges call out rapists' behaviour as abhorrent every day of the week, that doesn't make news.

If you disagree, do you have any ideas on how rape can be stopped?

I don't know

When I was raped I was in my aunts house with my dad and sister downstairs. I could hear them joking and laughing whilst he pinned me down and raped me.

I shouldn't have been alone with him so I guess I could have prevented it? I knew the situation was bad, he gave me bad vibes, I knew he was bad but I agreed to be alone with him anyway. So stupid.

A lot of these rape prevention tips only seem to reduce risk of being raped by a stranger and only a certain kind of stranger at that.

So you can say avoid walking late at night but that doesn't stop you being raped by your husband, friend, colleague, next door neighbour...it doesn't stop a stranger raping you if you are out and about during the day. It only prevents a stranger raping you at night

Do you think there is a way to stop rape completely?

I honestly think people who don't want these warnings made don't actually give two shits about rape victims and possibly even in some warped way want other women to get raped because it reinforces their world view. They just seem to see rape victims as collateral damage for their ideology

I sadly think you might be right. It makes me quite sad when I see this sort of thing on twitter, with every single suggestion of how women can avoid dangerous situations being met by the mantra of 'victim blaming'. When there are 2 women a week being murdered by their current or former partner, we know that men can be very, very dangerous indeed to women. In many countries and cultures, the rates of murder, assault and rape of women is much higher than in this country. Men are a threat. Yet, when people try to encourage self-preservation, it is immediately shut down with 'well, stop them raping'. HOW? What is your magic solution? And in the meantime, the victims are absolutely collateral. We get idiots like Lena Dunham etc who say women should be able to walk round naked and not get any hassle for it. That does not happen though, does it?

I have also seen women on twitter try to shut down initiatives telling teen girls not to send naked pictures by text. Saying things like 'it is NEVER your fault if the pictures get in the wrong hands'. No, it's not, but that doesn't stop the horror of all your classmates seeing them. Some teens have killed themselves over photos being spread around school.

The advice goes for men as well as women. A drunk young man in a town centre is vulnerable too. Keep with your friends and don't take shortcuts down lonely lanes and don't get too drunk is sensible advice for anyone.

If you read what she said she was not shifting responsibility at all. Rape is still rape . She was just asking girls to try and protect themselves a bit more. Unfortunately there are rapists out there and because they have no morals they probably will pick on the easy target and the most vunerable. Personally I think it is irresponsible for both young men and women to get totally drunk so they don't know what they are doing. And I also think Rapists should get longer behind bars .

I'm a victim and it's not my fault I was raped, I don't blame myself. But I do know I shouldn't have made myself vulnerable. I'd do anything to avoid my daughters being victims by advising against making themselves vulnerable in the same way. I owe it to them to give advice for the world we live in, not the world we should live in. And many rapists are opportunists, mine was. I've been stupid to get into drunken states where I was vulnerable, but it would still never be my fault if I someone else committed a crime against me. And while it wasn't my fault, I do have to live with the consequences

The best way to reduce numbers of rapes is to empower women to assert/refuse, to support then leaving abusive relationships.

Me wearing jeans doesn't stop a rape happening.

Rapists will look for women who are less likely to be able to fight back, because they're basically cowards,

Isn't that pretty much all women and any woman? Men are a lot stronger than women. Ever being held down by a man? It's like being held down by someone with super human strength .

I was stone cold sober but I still couldn't fight him off. I think he even had me held down with only one arm at one point but he was still too strong