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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Judge's warning to drunk women

985 replies

FirstShinyRobe · 10/03/2017 21:47

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39233617

AIBU to think she had a marvellous platform with her retirement speech to issue instead a warning to men not to rape women?

OP posts:
Graphista · 16/03/2017 08:46

"Thank you for the anti rape campaigns linked at men Graphista.
If only they were everywhere, what a relief that would be"

Share them! With friends, family, on social media...

I do, I see the benefits of doing so as 2-fold

Education
Letting people (admittedly especially my dd) know they ARE allowed to say no, they WILL be believed (at least by me) if they are hurt in this way.

ClarabellCow · 16/03/2017 10:57

Graphista I don't find it hard to understand that it is women at all. It is based on years of conditioning. We are also told to be grateful for what we have. Women's rights have moved forward so much that many women are just grateful we have it better than our female ancestors.

For example I'm grateful I can open my own bank account without my husbands permission. But I'm not horrified that that wasn't always the case. I accept that as a reality.

I think where I fall down is that I don't look forward and see what can be achieved next. Rightly or wrongly some women interpret rebalancing the scales as actually disadvantaging men. I understand that the number of false allegations is low, but to say there has never been a scorned woman who has played the system is too much of a broad brush for many to stomach. Just as there are evil men, there are evil women. (I don't actually believe in evil, but I'm using it to make a point).

So where are the fail safes for that? I don't have the answers. I think you are correct with education. I don't think we will ever irradicate rape, but I do think it would reduce the 'accidental rape'.

I don't mean he did it without realising, I mean the institutionalised entitlement some men have that means they knew they were having sex, but her consent was not important enough that he should look at her face throughout to see her enjoyment/lack thereof.

I had a lot of casual sex as a young woman. Some that would now be classed as rape, but even I didn't know that at the time. I don't believe the men knew this either, because I looked away so they couldn't see me cry. I didn't want sex with them but I didn't say stop because I felt I had led them to this point (I had) and would let them down. I wasn't scared of them, I was scared of myself. wanted to feel loved and had no idea how to find that love.

Fuck, there's another screen name gone after putting all that out there.

ClarabellCow · 16/03/2017 11:02

Sorry I just want to add as well I wish I'd seen tea and consent as a young women.

I'd have felt able to say no more often instead of see it through to avoid rocking the boat or damaging my reputation.

skerrywind · 16/03/2017 11:08

clarabell, I agree, and I don't think you are the only woman to have gone through this.

My mother gave me no sex education, other than telling me as a teenager that sex was something I would need to "endure" if I got married, and "put up with" for the sake of my husband.
I started sexual relationships on a very bad footing.

Elendon · 16/03/2017 11:11

Clarabell

An honest post. The more you are honest with yourself, the more you realise that blame should never be on the victims. Take care of yourself. You did not lead anyone on. The person sharing intimacy with you should have had the decency to realise that you were uncomfortable with the situation and simply should have stopped.

I'm reminded reading this thread about the 2004 Tsunami. Many people blamed themselves for surviving, whilst others died. Some even committed suicide because of it. No one who didn't suffer in this catastrophe would agree, but perhaps would emphasise with survival guilt. I think women do have survival guilt when it comes to rape. Totally understandable. But it's not a stick to be used to beat any victim with.

ClarabellCow · 16/03/2017 11:18

Yes. I knew that if my mother found out I was having sex outside of marriage it would be my fault. I had no one to ask about it. I have been sexually abused by an older sibling who had no fucking clue either and we both have scars from that - they were the 'perp' but they will never get over what they did, even with my forgiveness.

To be honest all the nastiness on the thread has really upset me because some of the people who are proclaiming to understand victims just shout us down as soon as we try to clumsily break into the conversation.

I have been forced to believe abstinence was the only way until you are married. It's my fault. Tea and consent is so funny to me because coming from an Irish family, you don't get to consent to tea even! If you don't want tea you don't have to have tea is a new concept to me - in our family, refusing tea was bad manners and we were trained to say yes please from an early age. If you didn't like the taste of tea you were labelled abnormal. I'm talking about ACTUAL tea here. You also eat at least one biscuit or cake, or you are insulting the spread.

Quite a tangent there but this name will go after this conversation so don't really care. Sad

Elendon · 16/03/2017 11:25

Yes it's the Mrs Doyle and 'You will, you will, you will' regarding the tea and consent thing, which I truly believe only Irish people understand.

When I come back to my home, after visiting Ireland, the first thing my children say to me is 'would you like a cup of tea?' I know they are joking and it's funny. But to survivors of rape, it has a bitter sweet remembrance to it.

Sorry if I caused you any offence.

Batteriesallgone · 16/03/2017 17:01

To be honest all the nastiness on the thread has really upset me because some of the people who are proclaiming to understand victims just shout us down as soon as we try to clumsily break into the conversation.

Sometimes I think the only way to break down the mental barriers of obligation / subjugation is to hear other people loudly arguing about it (or robustly exchanging on the internet!). When the conversation is too polite, it's easy to nod along while not getting personally riled, and thus not really needing to consider your own viewpoint.

That's certainly why I get loud and bolshy on threads like this. Because that's what helped lead to the start of my healing regarding my history, many moons ago when I discovered mumsnet Grin

ClarabellCow · 16/03/2017 18:07

So are you saying your behaviour is a tactic, batteries?

Batteriesallgone · 16/03/2017 18:32

Not a tactic, no. More than I won't suppress my instinct to fight (for the sake of politeness), because I I think the fight itself can be a positive thing IYSWIM. 'Tactic' to me would imply I'm putting it on, which is definitely not the case.

ClarabellCow · 16/03/2017 18:40

I do see what you mean. I respectfully disagree but I understand better than your last post.

I think when you have been subjected to abuse it can be the case that you avoid any tension or friction because that has become your survival tactic.

Batteriesallgone · 16/03/2017 19:45

Yes. The old rebel vs peacemaker thing. I went down the rebel route but I do understand the appeal of peacemaker.

ClarabellCow · 16/03/2017 19:49

Peacemaker is horrible. It's like being in that dream when you are screaming but nothing comes from your mouth. But it is a survival tactic nonetheless.

Graphista · 16/03/2017 19:51

Yes clarabell but we abuse victims can also reach a point where we won't be silenced/suppressed any more!

I've reached that point both online and in real life and not just with this subject.

I say what I think now, I won't have people in my life that hurt me (I'm Nc with my father and sister and lc with my mother, 'friends' who've been arsy about this or revealed themselves to be prejudiced bigots I've dropped) I'm in my 40's now, fuck trying to please everyone and being polite for the sake of it. It only serves the wicked!

Elendon · 16/03/2017 19:58

Wanting to scream and having no sound, or no power to make a sound, is a sign, within a dream, of PTSD. It is a dream that follows an event you found stressful or a reliving of a stressful event.

Elendon · 16/03/2017 20:04

The reliving of the event can be even worse in your dreams. This especially so if a child has suffered abuse. A child in this scenario will be aged to 18.

Graphista · 16/03/2017 20:15

Ugh been having dreams like that for decades! Less so since I stopped people pleasing!

KindDogsTail · 16/03/2017 22:19

they were the 'perp' but they will never get over what they did, even with my forgiveness.

That is such an interesting thing you have said Clara about this sibling.

Also about manners and actual tea! I agree.

I do think too that girls'/womens' good manners with men causes problems too, like feeling bad mannered/wrong to scream and shout "No" get away from me, if it someone you know/went out with is pushing on with unwanted sex.

Graphista · 18/03/2017 02:34

Has anyone from this thread seen the threads on the rapist of a 12-yr old getting an absolute discharge?

Wtf is this country coming to?!

PageNowFoundFileUnderSpartacus · 18/03/2017 12:08

Yes, but I've read the whole unusual story. I think the judge took the correct course of action based on the reported facts and I'm left wondering WTF were the parents of the 12yo doing that their child was able to be out drinking and partying in town until after 4.00am.

Graphista · 18/03/2017 12:11

Completely disagree. The law is under 13 = rape that should have been upheld. I've also started researching the judge and she seems weirdly synpathetic to rapists.

PageNowFoundFileUnderSpartacus · 18/03/2017 12:14

Yes I know you disagree, I've seen your comments on the other thread. There's no point getting into it again here as neither of us are going to change the other's mind. I agree with you about much of the subject of this thread, but we differ on this point and that's fine.

Graphista · 18/03/2017 12:16

Well if you think it's fine that 12 year old girls are vilified but 19 year old rapists aren't

PageNowFoundFileUnderSpartacus · 18/03/2017 12:29

I know you usually have better reading comprehension than that so I'll let that rather silly attempt at goading pass. There are plenty of people on the other thread for you to continue arguing with.

Graphista · 18/03/2017 12:46

I'm finding it far too upsetting and infuriating. I'm gonna take a break for now.

I'm genuinely shocked at the sheer number of mners (most of whom are probably parents) who think this is ok. It's not.

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