Judge's warning to drunk women

[FirstShinyRobe]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39233617

AIBU to think she had a marvellous platform with her retirement speech to issue instead a warning to men not to rape women?

Ok, take the firework words out of it.

A judge focuses on victims preventing rape instead of rapists not raping. How is that not arse backwards?

So if you got drunk and were raped would you think it was your fault because you didn't take that judgrs advice?
How many more times are you going to repeat that imaginary crap? You are the only one here posting such nonsense.

The link doesn't work for me. But in general, it's fair advice. All of the dodgy/borderline sexual situations me or my friends have been in have involved alcohol. I enjoy a drink and have no intention of going tee total to avoid crime, but I'm fully aware of how much more open heavy drinking leaves me to dangerous situations. I'm the biggest feminist going but I'll hammer home the personal safety message to anyone I can get to listen.

If women never drank again and stayed sober 24/7. Would rapes stop or decline? I wonder.

What you are saying to your daughters by saying "stay sober so you are less likely to get raped" is actually "a rapist is out there and going to rape someone, so just improve your chances of not being that someone"

Which is of course sensible advice from a mother to a child - I would always preach risk reduction to my much cherished child.

But someone with a public safety in mind like a judge?! Is she saying that if we always stay sober that rapes will reduce?

Rapists don't give a shit about behaviour. They care about the control, and the power, and the feeling of entitlement.

Victims are the ones blamed for it. Constantly. By society at large, by people we think are friends, by parents, by actors in movies, by TV shows. We can teach women 'safety measures" all we want, but we're really saying "modify your behaviour and you won't be the one at fault." Rape will not stop until rapists stop raping.

OK, if we can't tell women to be careful about not getting too drunk in unsafe places, not taking unlicensed cabs, not going back with a strangers, can someone tell me when will men stop attacking women??? When will it be safe to get legless and to leave your drink unattended? I really want to know.

Rape and sexual assault have a devastating effect on victims. I would want to stop that happening to any woman. I would rather it did not happen because the woman did not leave her drink unattended than that it did happen and the perpetrator got jailed. Because the woman will get a life sentence of living with it, irrespective of how much the perpetrator gets punished.

With ALL other crimes we tell people to be careful- don't go here, don't do this, because it's dangerous. But we cannot warn women to be careful when it comes to sexual assault because it's victim-blaming.

Will a rapist think - "Damn no drunk women so I'll not bother raping tonight" or will they just pick the next most vulnerable target.

I totally agree Morris. I cannot stand seeing people so inebriated they are lying there totally out of it, disgusting and leaving attacks aside, shows a total lack of responsibility towards themselves, their health and the NHS.

Also utterly pointless advice. I do not know one woman, (and I am boring and middle aged) who has not 'put themselves at risk'. Have you never ever got pissed, never ever walked home alone, never ever took a short cut, never ever snogged a man you didnt know. It is a waste of breath to say this rubbish. Young women, sorry women of all ages do this stuff all the time, its you know living your life. How about we put this energy into working out why men rape.

I think a lot of rapes do occur when people are drinking a lot of alcohol.
This is true of perpetrators and victims.

pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh25-1/43-51.htm

"At least one-half of all violent crimes involve alcohol consumption by the perpetrator, the victim, or both (Collins and Messerschmidt 1993). Sexual assault fits this pattern. Thus, across the disparate populations studied, researchers consistently have found that approximately one-half of all sexual assaults are committed by men who have been drinking alcohol. Depending on the sample studied and the measures used, the estimates for alcohol use among perpetrators have ranged from 34 to 74 percent (Abbey et al. 1994; Crowell and Burgess 1996). Similarly, approximately one-half of all sexual assault victims report that they were drinking alcohol at the time of the assault, with estimates ranging from 30 to 79 percent (Abbey et al. 1994; Crowell and Burgess 1996). It is important to emphasize, however, that although a woman’s alcohol consumption may place her at increased risk of sexual assault, she is in no way responsible for the assault. The perpetrators are legally and morally responsible for their behavior."

Generally it's worthwhile to take pragmatic steps to avoid crime. People are generally advised to lock their doors to reduce the risk of burglary. If someone leaves their door unlocked, it might increase the chance of a burglary, but it doesn't mean they're to blame - the person who committed the crime is.

With rape it seems to me a bit more difficult because some suggested precautions, that may seem like pragmatic advice, have previously been used to blame victims. We don't have a long history of burglars being acquitted because the home owner left their door open.

What the judge says is probably correct in terms of sheer pragmatism, but until our courts are free of victim-blaming in rape cases, these sorts of statements aren't helpful when it comes to combatting rape culture.

I hate to flag my sex on here, but I am male so just want to acknowledge that the above could be absolute drivel. Sorry if I'm speaking out of turn.

We can teach women 'safety measures" all we want, but we're really saying "modify your behaviour and you won't be the one at fault." Rape will not stop until rapists stop raping

Well, I would interpret it more as saying 'there are evil pieces of scum out there who get off on control and power and please don't fall victim to them'. That is how I would see it, rather than a suggestion that the victim is at fault for the rape or assault itself.

Because realistically when will rapists stop raping and how do we get them to stop when it is such a widespread problem??

I can understand the criticism, but I am fairly sure that most of us lock our houses when we go out, or at night.
If I left my handbag on the seat of my unlocked car and the handbag was stolen, I'd be told I was stupid for leaving it there. A much less emotive crime maybe, but the principle is the same.

So many rapists say that they couldn't help it /don't remember what they did because they were drunk.

So it would make a lot more sense for MEN to stay sober, so they are not tempted to rape anyone.

For clarification, I am NOT suggesting that the victim of a sexual offence is ever 'stupid'.

allchattedout

You've said what I think I've been trying to say but way better.

jinglejess

And I think men should rape women?

Christ almighty. I'll continue to try to keep my daughter safe and you can try and change the world.

How about we put this energy into working out why men rape

Because some of them are scumbags and no amount of education will teach them not to. I am talking about the ones who put drugs into people's unattended drinks or prey on semi-unconscious women who have lost their friends. These men KNOW it is wrong and they know that they can just claim it was all consensual. Educating them won't help- they have some form of personality defect and a total lack of empathy, as do people who commit other violent offences.

Aren't most rapes of women by men who are known to them, and probably don't involve booze or short skirts?

Birdsdestiny that's what I don't get. Should women not go out and even have a few drinks in case this lowers their defences? Or snog a stranger (what's a one night stand then?) Or walk home quickly after going out with a gang of girls (when getting a taxi might be next to impossible)?

I have done all these things, got drunk, quickly walked home after dark, and snogged a stranger, and never ever ever would I have felt that if someone had raped me they would have had any justification or my behaviour been an explanation.

I don't want to live in a world in which women are instructed not to drink. The joke is most women on here have got drunk, have felt tipsy, have felt a tiny bit out of control, we know most people drink, so who are all these women who are in control at all times?

I have no idea what to tell my girls as it appears society is going backwards and women enjoying themselves, feeling free, is never going to happen, neither is walking around wearing normal clothes or going jogging without being cat-called or sexually harassed and so on.

I'd like them to be able to go out, dressed up to the nines, and have a good fun night involving alcohol, and come home without anyone raping them. I really don't think that is too much to ask.

I'm immensely cheered by two things:

1. That no matter what her personal opinions on drunken women are, sentencing guidelines oblige her to impose a sentence of at least five years for rape - this one was six so she obviously felt the rapist had gone the extra mile;

1. She is retiring.

Because some of them are scumbags

But why?

trigger warning I was raped when I was at University. I went out with my friends, got absolutely legless and somehow got split up from them on the walk home ... I had 2 options to walk home - through a deserted park (taking abt 2 minutes) or along the road (taking 15 minutes) - and drunk me thought only of the 13 minute time saved and walked through the park where I got attacked.

What happened to me was 100% the fault of my rapist HOWEVER if I had not been as drunk as I was I would never have put myself into the situation where I was walking through a deserted park alone at 4am. It's not even that I would have been thinking about potential rapists but I'd have been more aware of my surroundings and my own personal safety. I cannot control other people's behaviour and there's no way I could have stopped my rapist wanting to attack me, but if I was stone cold sober I would never have put myself in the specific situation where it did happen.

It is about personal responsibility, I cannot control other people's behaviour or actions, but I can control my own and as part of that I can make choices that protect myself and people can call that "victim blaming" if they like but I call it "putting measures in place to make sure I never get raped again".

The more "don't drink" advice is dished out to women as rape prevention advice, the more it is used against women who are raped when they've been drinking.

I think advice should be given to all young people to not get absolutely out-of-control drunk and then stumble around town - that's good advice for many reasons.

But when you use it specifically as rape prevention advice - it converts to "ah well, she'd been drinking...." in the minds of everyone in society - including people on juries. It is cynically used against victims in court, and that is not on.

If every woman in England stopped drinking tomorrow, do we really think the number of rapes would reduce? I don't.

FourEyes
I'd like them to be able to go out, dressed up to the nines, and have a good fun night involving alcohol, and come home without anyone raping them. I really don't think that is too much to ask

That's something that I am sure every single person on this thread would agree on.