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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Judge's warning to drunk women

985 replies

FirstShinyRobe · 10/03/2017 21:47

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39233617

AIBU to think she had a marvellous platform with her retirement speech to issue instead a warning to men not to rape women?

OP posts:
SusieOwl4 · 10/03/2017 23:31

Yes coldicox good post. The press like to extract parts of a speech to make a headline.

Itsallaswizz · 10/03/2017 23:32

The notion that being drunk reduces your ability to fight off an attack or spot a potential rapist puts the responsibility for avoiding a rape on the victim.

KindDogsTail · 10/03/2017 23:33

I just read the news report the OP cited.

If a witness had not heard the girl screaming, doubtless the man would have been acquitted, especially as the victim had been drinking. It is so lucky he got caught because she was able to scream and lucky she was heard. She might have frozen and not been able to utter a sound.

Supposedly being drunk or drugged means you cannot give consent, but in practice, in trials, it is used as proof that someone had consented but cannot remember, or was just a bit drunk and uninhibited at the time, and consented at the time. Men take advantage of all this and know their chances of getting caught are very slight.

Horribly this is true of raping anyone vulnerable through age or mental disability - it is difficult to accept their evidence in trials to prove they did not consent ((in the unlikely even that there was a trial), and so they are easy targets.

TheWorldAccordingToToads · 10/03/2017 23:33

There was a poster on here who was raped numerous times by her husband throughout their relationship. She couldn't even report it even if she wanted to because it happened in the mid to late 80's and raping your wife wasn't a crime back then. He knew that and she knew that. Imagine how powerless you would feel?

allchattedout · 10/03/2017 23:33

TheWorld I am so sorry to hear that, and no you could have done nothing to prevent that and I am guessing you were quite young (maybe even a child) at the time. That sort of horrific situation is not the scenario the judge or other posters on here are talking about. I really hope your attacker was jailed for a long time for what he did.

Rapists will pick whatever vulnerability they can- sometimes the victim is very young and/or trusts the rapist, sometimes she is very drunk/drugged, sometimes she will be in a place where nobody could come to her aid. Some of these you cannot protect yourself against, some of them you can (to an extent). It is still always, always the rapists fault though.

SarcasmMode · 10/03/2017 23:38

I think advising men not to drink to excess and therefore remain under apparent control of themselves would be a better suggestion than asking the potential victims to change their behaviour.

TheWorldAccordingToToads · 10/03/2017 23:38

No, not a child, I was 20. I didn't report it because I didn't know what to do and I was worried my parents wouldn't believe me because they liked him. Incidentally they did believe me when I told them a few weeks later and they wanted me to report it but I was scared to so I didn't.

But if a man walked into the room right now and decided he was going to rape you then how would you stop it? Sad

Collaborate · 10/03/2017 23:41

I find it incredibly sad that there are some posters on this site who think that it is wrong to offer sensible advice to women to help protect them from making themselves vulnerable to predators.Until we live in a utopia where no men think of raping women, it is always right to give advice as this judge has done.

ItShouldHaveBeenJingleJess · 10/03/2017 23:41

OK, I'll be totally honest. When I was about twenty five, I went to a beach party. I was, admittedly, shit-faced. I got talking to a guy who had recently lost his dad. He asked me back to his place and we drank some more. I remember him trying it on and me declining and insisting on sleeping on his sofa rather than his bed. When I woke up, my jeans and pants were on the floor. I assumed that at some point, I must have agreed to sleeping with him. Until he said, the following morning "I feel a bit guilty because you said no to sex but we still did it". I'll never know what he meant. Did it happen when I was asleep? Did I eventually agree to it? I'll never know. A couple of years later, I bumped into a mutual friend who introduced him as her fiance and he didn't look me in the eye.

SusieOwl4 · 10/03/2017 23:42

Melj, how brave of you to post what you did. How sad what happened to you. But I do think you understood what the judge was saying and I always think it is scary when groups split up. I was with a hen night and kept sober as I could see others getting very drunk and at the end of the night people were getting lost because they did not really know what was happening and I had to find them and gather them up and get them in taxis and then walk some back to their rooms to make sure they got back safely. I agree it's appalling that we live in a society where we have to do that . there are also other dangers when very drunk not just rape. I am so sorry what happened to you.

allchattedout · 10/03/2017 23:42

But if a man walked into the room right now and decided he was going to rape you then how would you stop it?

I couldn't. Being careful is never a 100% solution, but it might stop a few women from having to go through it. It will still happen though and I think that rapists are fundamentally evil people. Therefore, sitting them down and explaining to them that it's wrong to rape will do nothing. They know full well how bad it is. In the case of drunk women, they also know that they have a pretty good chance of getting away with it.

369thegoosedrankwine · 10/03/2017 23:44

I don't think she is giving a message that women getting drunk means any rape is their fault. This advice is coming from years of dealing with awful evidence that she cannot forget and has had first hand experience of hearing and seeing.

I take her message to mean awful people are out there so remove yourself from risk by not getting so drunk you font know what you are doing.

SusieOwl4 · 10/03/2017 23:45

As a reply to some posters I agree In would be hard to stop a determined rapist , but there are different situations when rape occurs .its is not always by a stranger . I had to fight off an ex boyfriend .

KindDogsTail · 10/03/2017 23:46

TheWorldFlowers Poor little you when everyone else was just a short way a way. That man is pure evil. It is like an absolute nightmare.
Shasta Flowers It is so sad to hear what you and other posters here have gone through.

ghostyslovesheets · 10/03/2017 23:47

consider this:

I get pissed - I fall down a man hole - my fault ...

I get pissed and somebody PUSHES me down a manhole - still my fault?

The point with rape is it takes another person - it's not just 'being drunk' that is the issue - it's being drunk + meeting a rapist - since being stone cold sober + meeting a rapist is also a risk the being drunk has fuck all to do with it

CheeseQueen · 10/03/2017 23:50

Hmm. Just read the article all prepared to be outraged. No, seems like she's giving out sensible advice to me.
The blame will always like with the actions of attackers, but there are steps that women can take to protect themselves.

SusieOwl4 · 10/03/2017 23:51

Pickledcauliflower, the judge never said alcohol was responsible for rape. She made it clear she was not shifting responsibility.

Alcohol has been responsible for deaths by drowning and falling in wheelie bins and falling in front of cars and fights that have caused death as well . Which is why I think it is sensible advice.

ghostyslovesheets · 10/03/2017 23:51

the ONLY step women can take is to avoid rapists - how do you suggest they do that

I was 4

he was a family member

oh and I was sober Hmm

Summerisdone · 10/03/2017 23:51

I agree that she should have spoke more on how men shouldn't be committing this heinous crime, but sadly the world is still this way so she was offering some sound advice to women.
I don't see how she was blaming women. Men already know they shouldn't be raping people but unfortunately some still do although they know the consequences IF they get caught, so I feel this judge was trying to just warn women that we are more vulnerable when completely smashed, it's not how things should be but it's how things are.

ghostyslovesheets · 10/03/2017 23:53

Alcohol has been responsible for deaths by drowning and falling in wheelie bins and falling in front of cars and fights that have caused death as well . Which is why I think it is sensible advice

yes BUT if you had been PUSHED into a pond/canal/river or infront of a car or a wheelie bin it would be a crime - rape doesn't happen alone - somebody does it to you!

Whathaveilost · 10/03/2017 23:53

I totally get what she is saying and it's bang, on sound advice

I get it and I don't believe that she is victim blaming.
The fact is rapist rape.
A rapist, I would imagine is going to choice the path of least resistance, in other words someone they could attack , in their eyes who is going to struggle to fight back.
If you are pissed out of your head and separated from your mates you are undoubtly putting yourself at risk if a rapist is around. You may not judge danger as well as you would another time. You may not be able to respond as quick, remember what was said and so on Sober victims have their credibility shredded as it is put drink into the mix and any credibility has gone out of the window.
It's not right and it's not fair but currently it is what it is.

I try and keep my safe when I can.
I don't go in cars if someone is drunk.
I don't leave valuables on display and easy to nick unattended and ready for opportunist to take
I do drink and get rocked off my head but when I'm in a safe environment.

I do not believe that being sober prevents one from getting raped, not for one second.but do think why put yourself in a vulnerable position when you don't know who is a friend or foe.

Some of these points may have already said and also shot down but I've had this post open for a while and kept coming back to it.

TheWorldAccordingToToads · 10/03/2017 23:54

But how do you know which action will prevent the rape? If you end up getting stranded from your friends and you have a choice between walking up or taking a taxi how do you know which one is the safest? If you walk home you might get raped....but if you call a taxi the taxi driver might be a rapist 😔

Or a male friend might offer to walk you home to keep you safe...but your friend could then rape you on your way home. You would have been safer walking home alone in that case.

I don't want to live my life in fear Sad

ghostyslovesheets · 10/03/2017 23:55

I don't want to live my life in fear - exactly - especially the fear people will judge YOU!

TheWorldAccordingToToads · 10/03/2017 23:55

walking home

SusieOwl4 · 10/03/2017 23:56

Being drunk blurs the consent issues in some situations so I don't think the falling down a manhole covers the very wide variation of rape situations. When my daughter went out as a teenager I would warn her not to get blind drunk and yes I would try to get her to think about the clothes she would wear . Perhaps I am wrong but that is the sad society we live in and unti rapists are off the street I would still give the same advice. I am not stupid enough to think it would protect her 100% though.