Judge's warning to drunk women

[FirstShinyRobe]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39233617

AIBU to think she had a marvellous platform with her retirement speech to issue instead a warning to men not to rape women?

I can't define drunk that's the problem isn't it. And I know no woman of my age and younger who has not been drunk. I am a 45 year old woman, it's not as if myself and the people I know are swinging from the chandeliers every night. I can't believe that the people I know are that unusual! I just don't see the point in her statement. I wasn't even that annoyed about the statement until I saw some of the responses to it. I don't mean on this thread. The responses I have seen in other places have been just awful. And clothes were mentioned in a number of those responses. It is still one of the first thoughts in many peoples minds. Why was she there, what was she wearing, why did she get in the cab.

I completely agree birds

Her statement does contain sensible advice, but the main advice should have been for men not to rape. (apparently telling men not to rape won't work though, but asking women not to drink will).

Agree birds

Agree too with birds

I just don't see the point in her statement.

Go out in a city centre one Satdy Neet at about 2am and you'll see what she means. I think then you'll understand better.

Or just google 'drunk behaviour on streets'. That should do it.

Yes Elendon !!

That was agreeing with you about the creepy thing btw...some of the comments on here are horrible

Why she went, what she was wearing and why she got in the cab is totally irrelevant - only idiots and defence lawyers ask questions like that. Of course some people are using the judge's advice to make comments like that, because they are deliberately misunderstanding the nuance of what she said. Because they are thick. (sorry)

Ok, I will concede this: the judge clearly wasn't suggesting in any way that if you're drunk and get raped it's excusable and your fault, but she was opening the debate up to misappropriation of her comments (and their authority, coming from her, as a top judge) for the purposes of idiots trying to make out that rape can be prevented by different behaviour on the part of the woman.

If someone is determined to find someone to rape, they will.

So yes, maybe the judge was wrong to speak up. Because now she's being misunderstood on purpose, and her words used to fuel a spurious cause.

What she said wasn't wrong, but she could have anticipated that idiots would take it the wrong way. I suppose after all her years in court, she must have had quite a lot of experience of idiots, as well.

But I suspect she just wanted, once, to make her point, clearly as she did.

But why that point? Why doesn't someone in a position of authority make a statement in which the main points are about male behaviour?

And why is it that point about women that was picked up by journalists as the headline, given that she did say a bit of stuff about men?

And why, if those are the bulk of the cases she sees before her and so felt it was something worth saying (like it hasn't been said before), are those the bulk of the cases she sees before her given that they are a tiny fraction of actual rapes.

That's all what I was hoping we could talk about. Some of you have got what I was driving at, but I've lost the energy now.

I'm losing the energy, too.

To be accused of being an 'idiot' because I think the same old message isn't working, and we should try something else -

• that is, more education aimed at the people who actually commit rape, seeing as that consent is such a confusing issue for some -

... is so depressing.

To be accused of being an idiot because I think a more strategic approach is needed, rather than the same old 'don't get drunk' message which does not work. It's fine on an individual level (we all tell our kids it), but hopeless on a societal level, and at actually tackling the problem.

Yet, I, and others who agree with me, are the 'idiots' for thinking this and pointing it out.

I really don't get it.

Yes TheDowager. I always thought the description of "an idiot" was someone who tried the same thing expecting a different result. But hey ho. Apparently thinking this was a missed opportunity makes me "an idiot" too.

tiny fraction of actual rapes.

I think it may not be a tiny fraction.
I also think that alcohol is a factor in men the raping, so it may not be just the woman drinking that makes her vulnerable, but also that where she was drinking, alcohol-fuelled, dangerous, aggressive, entitled-feeling males are around.

Over the last year a lot of rapes reported in the paper related to a background where alcohol was involved.

Even if it is a high proportion that leaves all the other rapes which are unrelated to a victim's drinking-one of the greatest risk factors is being disabled.

These are some interesting articles related to alcohol and rape but pointing out how much more is involved than just a woman's drinking.
socialistworker.org/blog/critical-reading/2013/03/16/rape-crime-drinking-alcohol-is
thinkprogress.org/actually-the-link-between-sexual-assault-and-alcohol-isnt-as-clear-as-you-think-d63519b6ae6d#.y422t45w6

I was raped whilst walking home after a night out 14 years ago.

I was very drunk. I ended up being separated from my friends. I was wearing a skimpy dress. I decided that it would be a good idea to walk home alone in that state at 3am. I was then attacked and raped.

I didn't report it. I have never told a soul about what happened that night because I knew/know fine well the kind of responses I will get.

I know I was partly to blame for what happened, which is one of the reasons why I didn't report it. My mother always warned me to not get drunk or walk alone at night in case someone raped you (my brother was always allowed to do whatever he wanted though ) and I ignored both her warnings that night and I just know she would blame me for it. I just knew she would blame me and tbh she would have been right to. Perhaps if she hadn't told me constantly to not get drunk or walk alone then I might have at least told her what happened? I don't really know tbh.

Having said that, I'm torn. I have a daughter now and whilst she's not old enough yet to be going out drinking, I do worry about what I'm going to say to her when that time comes. On one hand, I do want to give her advice about keeping safe but on the other, I want to make it clear that if anything does happen to her then the only person responsible is the perpetrator.

I think rape is a very emotive subject. Sometimes I wonder what I would have done if something else had happened to me that night instead; if I had been mugged or beaten up then I don't think I would have hesitated in reporting it or telling people what had happened. I might have felt like an idiot for putting myself in that position but I wouldn't have felt ashamed or dirty. I certainly wouldn't have continued to blame myself or feel ashamed for 14 bloody years that's for sure.

I don't want anybody to go what I went through but at the same time I don't want anybody blaming themselves if something does happen. I mean I kind of know what happened was partly my fault and I need to take responsibility for it but I don't really know what the solution is

I know I was partly to blame for what happened, which is one of the reasons why I didn't report it.

No you really, really weren't. There was only one person to blame that night, and it wasn't you.

But if I wasn't there that night...if I wasn't in that state then it wouldn't have happened. Nobody made me drink that much or made me walk home alone, that was all me.

Maybe if I hadn't been drunk then I would have been able to run away. I did try running away but he caught me straight away.

I know I was partly to blame for what happened

No, you were not to blame at all. Please do not think that.

As you said, you would not feel this way if you had got mugged.

A rapist who was on the prowl was to entirely to blame.

You were not to blame Anxious.

Do you know what? I've been drunk in town more times than I care to remember, back in my misspent youth. I've never been raped - not by someone I know, and not by an opportunistic stranger.

There but for the grace of God go I.

It could've been me. But it wasn't, it was you. Or some other unlucky soul. That's the point - it will always be SOMEONE, as long as the message is 'don't drink', and as long as it's directed at women.

In fact, it's a bit of a lightbulb moment for me. Those days are behind me now, but I've had more raucous nights out than some of the more cautious, conservative, risk-adverse posters on this thread have had hot dinners. I've been drunk many times. Out in public.

I've never been raped or sexually assaulted, though.

Groped, whistled at, commented at, propositioned - yes, countless times, just like every other woman. But I've never been raped.

Mainly, because I simply haven't been in the presence of a rapist - and that's not something you can plan ahead for. So I'm here to counter all the posts from people who have been drunk and raped by strangers/acquaintances, and who blame themselves. I've been drunk and not raped - and that is down to nothing more or less than sheer luck. No cunning on my part, no sensibility on my part, either. Pretty fucking unfair, isn't it...

And I'm also really thinking now about exactly how I frame the 'be careful' message to my DD. The thought of something happening to her is horrific enough - but her then feeling like she can't come to me as Anxious did with her Mum, makes me feel terrified.

Once I saw on crime watch a woman was walking home with male friend after night out. She still got raped after he beat her friend up to incapacitate him, there wasn't a gang just one guy. Look what happened to that woman in India 2012 she had her fiancé with her. All the what ifs in the world will drive you mad because even if you were not drunk but wearing a suit coming from work that same rapist could have crossed your path. The one factor that would make the rape not possible is if the rapist just didn't exist.

The secret barrister seems to think Vera Baird should have said to women that in the end they should always report rape because no matter what the circumstances were surrounding it they will be listened to. But I think this would have been a great way for the judge to have ended her speech rather than the last remark that a drunk woman was less believable than a sober woman. She could have emphasised that it is only because victims report rape and are prepared to put themselves in the firing line means we have any chance of locking up rapists and possibly even prevent them escalating the offending to murder.

Although I think safety advice from anyone especially a judge is great I am afraid this will lead to more women not reporting rape simply because they will feel it's not worth the hassle. This puts all women in danger.

She's warning of dangers of heavily drinking. One of them is vulnerability. It's not as simple as, if you're drunk it's your fault, more pointing out the fact that rapists with prey on vulnerability. So avoid that, protect yourself from arseholes

New people keep arriving onto the 897-post thread saying exactly the same thing, as if they're enlightening us as to what she said. It's kind of funny not funny.

Anxious, I have been drunk, I have walked alone. As many many others on this thread have. I know no women who has not done this. I am so sorry that happened to you. Would you blame me if it had happened to me. No you wouldn't, not for one moment. It was not your fault.

rapists prey on vulnerability

Rapists prey on women. All women are vulnerable by the very fact of having a vagina. You CANNOT 'protect yourselves from arseholes' because they don't announce themselves as rapists. MOST rapes are committed by men known to the victim. How are we to protect ourselves from this? Don't speak to any men. Don't befriend any men. Don't form relationships with men. Don't have any contact with your male family members.

Obviously the above advice is fucking ridiculous, but as things currently stand it would 'protect' more women than telling them not to drink.

The focus must change from women thinking that they are able to stop themselves being raped if they do everything exactly 'right' to men understanding what consent truly is, viewing women as their equals with rights over their own bodies, and maybe THEY could consider not getting pissed and raping people.

When I was young and very naive I was sometimes tiddly and affectionately slept the night in bed with good male friends i'd been hanging about with, hugging but not sexually, on trust. Nothing bad happened at all. This was because they were decent/not rape inclined.

Just think how I would have been entirely blamed, and and how they would have been acquitted by the jury, if they had raped me.

I wonder if now it would be out of the question to do this now because of the expectations and sense of right to have sex men have?