Judge's warning to drunk women

[FirstShinyRobe]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39233617

AIBU to think she had a marvellous platform with her retirement speech to issue instead a warning to men not to rape women?

I get a bit bored of victim blaming responses to everything.

If someone is raped it is the fault of the rapist.

Getting legless undoubtedly makes you higher risk of being a victim of lots of crime, however. Robbery, assault, rape. It makes you more likely to have an accident when walking home. But this is the case for men and women. Making it into a 'girls shouldn't drink' message is where is goes wrong. Voicing the risks however verges on stating the bleeding obvious. But where it is voiced it should be about the risks to all.

Just think how I would have been entirely blamed, and and how they would have been acquitted by the jury, if they had raped me.

The problem is that the jury needs hard evidence that rape has occurred. He would say it consensual, you not. Unless you had visible injuries how would the jury know what the truth is beyond reasonable doubt? There is a risk in sharing a bed, but it is your decision to take it. It would still be his fault though, whether there was proof or not.

Strangely, at the time I did not think there was a risk, as I just trusted them..

I think in most cases there is not enough proof. In this one it was only that someone heard her screaming.

It is supposed to be that there is no consent if someone is drunk, but she has to be very drunk to the point of being unconscious, other wise lack of memory/consent is assumed. There would have to be CCTV evidence to show a girl was completely drunk or not consenting, or a witness, as in this case or the Brock Turner case, and even then a jury might acquit.

The system we have is not working for rape victims for the most part, but I don't know what the answer is.

This is a harrowing story:

medium.com/thelist/i-was-raped-at-oxford-university-police-pressured-me-into-dropping-charges-30d37d25efa0#.5vfvgf9m5

Many years ago, around late 1970s, I had lunch with a male friend (totally platonic mate). My cat had been run over the day before and I was in a state. Normally I could drink half a bottle, no problem, but because I was so upset, just one and a bit glasses of red and I was almost paralytic, weeping etc. Friend called a taxi (yes, yes, I know - he should have accompanied me home to make sure I was OK) but instead he poured me into mini cab taxi.

Next thing I knew - I woke up, in my own bed, fully clothed, and definitely NOT 'interfered with' in any way. Plus note from taxi driver explaining he'd found my keys, let himself into the house, hauled me upstairs, put me on the bed and covered me up (in recovery position, in case I vomited) and left me. He hadn't even taken his fare from my bag.

Yes, I was very VERY lucky. But I sort of see both sides to this discussion: girls have every right to get drunk if they want, also dress as they want. But if, like me, they become so smashed they don't realise what they're doing, well, all the legislation in the world about 'men mustn't have sex with drunk women who are incapable of giving consent' etc. isn't going to make any difference to vile predators who will take advantage if it comes their way, with ghastly consequences, including sometimes even murder.

Best advice from an ancient crone: drink, but keep in a group. Watch out for each other. If you use a taxi, one of you take a note of reg. no. etc. Best, pre-book a reputable taxi firm to pick you up, keep record of booking. Or get dad or other male relative to pick you up. Don't get separated from your friends. Watch your drinks (so no one slips in some drug). Wear that you like but remember, after the influence of maybe a lot of inhibition-loosening booze, don't start 'flashing' or acting in some provocative 'come on' way you'd never DREAM of doing if sober, that at best, may be misinterpreted or at worse, an invitation to a potential sexual assaulter.

I expect I'll get flamed for this. I have three gorgeous granddaughter, two of them almost teenagers. Their mums and I will make sure they are aware of this when they're older. Also my two beloved grandsons know how to respect women and protect them.

Over forty years later I still think of that kind taxi driver - and what COULD have happened to me.

JedBartlet So we agree that it is not an effective rape preventative, to tell women to stop drinking. As in fact, there are men out there who will rape them anyway.

If such a rapist is present then no level of sobriety would make any difference to them. If no such rapist is present, but one who would select a very drunk woman is, then it would make a difference.

And even in the first case being extremely drunk would surely make it more likely that his aims will be successful.

I do not know why anyone would dispute this.

JAPAB it would NOT make a difference to the number of people raped, as such a rapist would find another victim, unless ALL women stop drinking.

No one has disputed that people are less capable of defending themselves when very drunk. But that is true of all people (men and women) and of all crimes (rape, burglary, mugging, assault) so why do these campaigns always focus on women, and a type of attack where women are always the victim? It's not a public safety campaign. It's a reminder to women that they bear responsibility for their own rape. Which is fucking bollocks.

As above, it is NOT an effective rape preventative to tell women to stop drinking, unless ALL women give up ALL alcohol, and why the fuck should 50% of the population modify their behaviour in this way when the other 50% are the perpetrators of these crimes?

I would absolutely support a campaign aimed at men to ask them to reduce the amount of alcohol they consume, as some men are more likely to rape women when drunk. Why do you think we don't see these sort of campaigns?

Oldgrandmama that's one of the most depressing, defeatist examples I've ever seen of internalised misogyny!

You were not lucky that's how it SHOULD be!

Men are no more stupid than women and so the idea that they CAN'T Learn/understand what is TRUE consent is just ridiculous! If rapists can apply their brain power to assessing potential victims they can bloody well apply it to NOT being rapists AND that idea is insulting to men who AREN'T rapists

I and my dd should ABSOLUTELY be able to wear and behave as we want (aside from hurting others ourselves) without having to take ANY responsibility for the criminal actions of other sentient intelligent human beings!

I've not been raped but I have as I've said been abused, I've done the 'did I misunderstand' 'did I give the wrong impression' shit WITH MY OWN FATHER I am STILL dealing with the after effects 40 years later. He is still denying he did ANYTHING wrong. Well fuck that! And fuck feeling AT ALL responsible for the times I was assaulted in broad daylight on busy streets/on public transport by arrogant entitled arseholes!

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!

And the LAST thing we need is other women supporting and endorsing this misogyny and myth!

I didn't read the judge's statement as an attempt to blame or inadvertent blaming of women for attacks on them by men. I think that she probably concetrated on speaking to women because they are the people she empathises and identifies with.

You were not lucky that's how it SHOULD be!

This is very true, and yet I can identify with the internalised misogyny. When I was a student, I went for a night out drinking, was having fun with a man I knew vaguely from my course, we went back to mine...Anyway, after a while, I realised that I just wasn't that into it and so told him that I didn't want to go any further.

As it happens, he completely accepted that and spent the night on the sofa, leaving the bed to me. But for a long time, I felt that I had behaved stupidly and had had a lucky escape - that I had "led him on" all evening, that all evening he could have assumed we'd be having sex and then, when I changed my mind, decided to take it anyway. And a huge part of me would have felt that I had deserved that because of my behaviour.

Terrifying, isn't it?

I would absolutely support a campaign aimed at men to ask them to reduce the amount of alcohol they consume, as some men are more likely to rape women when drunk. Why do you think we don't see these sort of campaigns?
I agree. The drink culture in is awful and almost incomprehensible. The peer pressure to drink is enormous, and I do think it has got even worse because now drinks like vodka shots have taken over from wine, beer and cider in party settings. It affects men very badly.

I know you are trying to get away from the focul on women and alcohol, but I think they are getting sucked in to the same attitudes rather than both men and women drinking less. It also affects women particularly badly because their bodies cannot deal with alcohol as well as men can and there will always be an inbalance if they are tryong to keep up with the men.

Freshers at universities, men and women, are expected to drink far more than they could ever be used to, but women most of all.

It is taboo here probably to say anything about the random sex, fuck- buddy culture, but that does not help either. That is another very stupid thing that men like, which makes them feel they have the right to sex any time they want.

In my opinion it is a shame that instead of criticising this, in the interests of equality, woman feel they ought to do the same and there is peer pressure on this score too. Though women have the absolute right to choose this this, but I think it is generally destructive, especially to women but also to men. This culture mixed with binge drinking does not seem positive in the main.

Getting girls drunk was always a good way for men to take control of women though. Think of the song "Have some Madeira, M'dear".

TheOnly
i agree that is how it should be, and how it should be in relation to that night you are telling about in your own case too.

However much you had led him to believe there would be sex earlier that night, I think you were brave to stop things going further (rather than just be meek) and I think he behaved the right way too in respecting your change of mind.

It would be good if there were a campaign with men like him and the taxi driver, or the young men I mentioned earlier, speaking up about these times when they have chosen to not take an opportunity to have sex that would have been unwanted by the woman, just because it would have been possible.

Scottish anti rape campaign aimed at young men

www.heraldscotland.com/news/13416181.Young_men_targeted_in_new_anti_rape_campaign/

Chief Inspector Graham Goulden, bystander trainer at the Violence ReductiEon Unit, said: "It's great to see those who work in pubs and clubs showing this willingness to see their role in the prevention of this crime.

"As bystanders we all have the potential to prevent any incident from escalating. By doing nothing we are telling offenders their behaviour is okay and victims they're on their own. This just isn't right.

"We want to make sure society starts to focus their attention on the men who do this rather than focusing on whether a victim had been drinking. We will never stop this if we continue to focus on victims."

That's good Kr1. I'd be interested to see the actual campaign.

"We want to make sure society starts to focus their attention on the men who do this rather than focusing on whether a victim had been drinking. We will never stop this if we continue to focus on victims."

An actual man who gets it - and a man on the front line, at that (a policeman) - compared with the same old tired, ineffective statement from a women which prompted this thread.

Gives me a bit of hope - thanks for sharing, Kr1stina.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=ypVzXpKkFiU

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/my-mind-went-blank-head-9978965

This is a good one that shows how some rapists could convince themselves they're not rapists:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=XFZBwEow_Cc

And I'm guessing most have seen this ad

m.youtube.com/watch?v=yuRPCc-C-uo

Part of the reason I keep coming back to this thread is that in the last fortnight, we've had two high profile incidents in the news that relate to the broader issues we're talking about here. The culture that we live in that this judge's comments exacerbate.

Both happened in my city. Both involving boys' schools.

The first involved comments made on a closed Facebook group that got leaked. One boy saying, 'If you don't take advantage of a drunk girl, you're not a true [name of school] boy'. The comment was then 'liked' many times, with someone adding the comment underneath, 'fuck women'. These are high school-aged boys.

The other incident involved four year 9 (13-year old boys) from a different all-boys school a couple of kilometres down the road, inappropriately filming women teachers without their knowledge or consent.

These are the attitudes we're dealing with. I doubt any of these boys (because that's what they are) from good schools, with middle-class upbringings, would consider themselves to be rapists or sexual predators, in a million years.

But if there's anyone on this thread who doesn't think they could benefit from a little education (and a little less entitlement), then maybe you could explain why, exactly.

This is what we're dealing with. This is what we're warning our daughters about. You may be able to keep yourself and your girl safe, but what about the next woman that crosses their path?

As an aside, I've long thought that women who happily identify as feminist tend to be much better at looking at the bigger picture, thinking more strategically and tactically. This thread only makes me think that even more. Sorry, but it does.

To whoever it was that said upthread, 'all we (feminists) want to do is push our own agenda', you couldn't be more correct. The feminist agenda is to improve the lot for all women. I think people who disagree with this are ultimately doing far more harm than good. Maybe you need to look at your agenda.

On the plus side, girls from some of the local girls' (and co-ed) schools organised a march on Parliament on Monday, in response to these two incidents - the turn-out was way bigger than anticipated, and it involved some boys too, which is incredibly heartening.

I think the comment about the fact that a rapist will rape someone else if they are not successful with one person is ignoring the many different types of rape which have been so bravely described on here . I wonder how these people would feel if their sons had been accused of rape where the girl had led him on and appeared willing but the next day could not remember what happened ? And if the son had been drunk as well and got carried away and thought she had consented? Is it rape and would he necessarily have done the same thing again if he had not carried on? Had the man in the case she was quoted on raped before ? I guess not as he got only 6 years . So if he had not raped her would he have gone on to rape again? I don't think you can assume that. The judge made it quite clear about where the responsibility was and it was not with the victim so I still think you have to take her comments in context and not apply it to the crime in general.

Actually one thing we are all ignoring is that girls do have to be protected and take care , because it's simple men can't be raped. We may all want to act the same and drink as much as we want but we are exposed to that one danger that men are not. It obviously won't prevent all rapes that is obvious. It won't absolve responsibility , and I do think there's more education of boys going on in the media of no means no etc. But surely trying to protect ourselves is not bad advice ?

Actually one thing we are all ignoring is that girls do have to be protected and take care , because it's simple men can't be raped

Yes, men can be raped. I don't know where you got that from.

it's simple men can't be raped

Oh , for heaven's sake. Approximately 12,000 men are raped in England and Wales alone every year (Rape Crisis statistics). Do try and educate yourself on the bare minimum before lecturing the rest of us.

I wonder how these people would feel if their sons had been accused of rape where the girl had led him on and appeared willing but the next day could not remember what happened ? And if the son had been drunk as well and got carried away and thought she had consented?

There's an obvious way to reduce the chances of that happening. Aim the advice at not getting so drunk that you lose your judgement of a situation at men.

Well I teach my sons about consent and how a woman who is drunk can't consent.

And how they Should not get so drunk that they don't know what they are doing.

And that "getting carried away" is not a defence to a crime.

And that there's no such thing as a girl "leading them on", they are responsible morally and legally for their own actions.

Susieowl such ignorant posts

1 men DO get raped

2 if a son of mine behaved/thought like that I'd

A think I'd failed as a mother! In raising a rapist

B report him myself!

If you've got a son who believes women 'lead him on' and 'gets carried away' then I think it's fair to say it's pretty likely he won't just rape one woman in his lifetime, and if that particular girl managed to get away from him at a party, he may well refocus his attentions on another girl. Who may find it harder to say no or escape for any number of reasons.

Situations like that are rarely a true one off.

JedBartlet No one has disputed that people are less capable of defending themselves when very drunk. But that is true of all people (men and women) and of all crimes (rape, burglary, mugging, assault) so why do these campaigns always focus on women, and a type of attack where women are always the victim?

Well we can only speculate really. Explanations might include that rape and sexual assault are seen as worse than property crimes and assault;
the other crimes might occur less often in circumstances where a reasonable behavioural modification on the part of the victim might have prevented them, giving any such campaigns less to actually advice people against?;
Maybe also when the others do occur they tend to be easier to prosecute or otherwise deal with. Or you could speculate that the motive is:

It's not a public safety campaign. It's a reminder to women that they bear responsibility for their own rape.

Maybe, but irrespective of the motive behind the judge's words, or these sorts of campaigns in general, the advice itself will be either good or bad on its own merits. You seem to agree that not getting excessively drunk can help minimise risks.

As above, it is NOT an effective rape preventative to tell women to stop drinking, unless ALL women give up ALL alcohol

It wasn't ALL drinking, just drinking too much. But that goes for any safety advice surely? One person following it does not eliminate or reduce the crime particularly when considered as a whole. But if a significant number do.

I would absolutely support a campaign aimed at men to ask them to reduce the amount of alcohol they consume, as some men are more likely to rape women when drunk. Why do you think we don't see these sort of campaigns?

I suspect that there have been more campaigns aimed at men such as a TV advert I remember seeing "Rape. Short word, long sentence", the tea-drinking one, and so on, than there have been "don't burgle", "don't murder" or "don't con the elderly" type ones.

To answer your question, again can only speculate. Maybe the known incidents of men raping "by accident while drunk" are not enough to warrant it? That said, I do remember one poster against drinking in general, which did say that getting too drunk might affect whether someone properly checks for consent. It was discussed on MN somewhere.