Judge's warning to drunk women

[FirstShinyRobe]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39233617

AIBU to think she had a marvellous platform with her retirement speech to issue instead a warning to men not to rape women?

What is 'too much'? Two drinks? Three? Ten? I asked you this before and you were not able to give me the magic level at which a woman could avoid being raped. So the only logical conclusion, if women drinking is causing them to be raped, is to stop all women drinking any alcohol.

Of course, WOMEN DRINKING ALCOHOL IS NOT CAUSING THEM TO BE RAPED. So that advice would be fucking bollocks.

Raping 'by accident when drunk' can you explain to me how one might rape someone 'by accident' please?

Alcohol consumption in men increases sexual aggression and makes it less likely that they will properly check for consent so why the fuck aren't we asking them to make a 'reasonable behavioural modification' and give up drinking to excess?

This seems to be a circular debate. On one hand, it is being argued that men are so institutionally entitled that they can rape without knowing and more education on what consent looks like is needed. On the other, there is shock and uproar at the suggestion a man can rape 'by accident'.

It is hard to know how to approach the topic.

Well I teach my sons about consent and how a woman who is drunk can't consent.
And how they Should not get so drunk that they don't know what they are doing.
And that "getting carried away" is not a defence to a crime.
And that there's no such thing as a girl "leading them on", they are responsible morally and legally for their own actions

I've taught my sons exactly the same. I don't for one moment think I needed to but I wasn't going to take the chance. Number one rule is dont rape (obviously) no 2 rule is dont put yourself in any situation where you might potentially be accused of rape. i.e. one night stands, drink or drugs etc

I think there are times when you can be more or less safe when you drink too much. For example at a family party but generally I think it's irresponsible to drink so much that you don't know what you are doing or so that your actions are seriously impaired. Same for drugs.

Applies to men and women.

clarabell I don't think anyone has said men rape without knowing what they're doing is rape, have they?

You can't get raped 'by accident'. It's a fucking ridiculous thing to say and offensive to victims. There's hardly been 'shock and uproar' though.

I'm sorry it came across that way. My point was that some men have so little grasp on consent, that they wrongly interpret the lack of 'no, stop it' as consent due to a lack of education. More work is needed in this area.

I don't think expressions like 'fucking ridiculous' moves the conversation forward.

Thank you for the anti rape campaigns linked at men Graphista.
If only they were everywhere, what a relief that would be. It would give young men the back up too to not have to pretend to agree with their more sexually aggressive peers, like the ones in the school TheOnly mentioned.

Boys and men do get raped Susie, including in macho places like the army and football clubs.

Clarabell I agree much better education is needed regarding consent.

All due respect, I'm an adult and can use swearwords if I like, and using the word 'accident' in conjunction with the word 'rape' is a fucking ridiculous and outrageous thing to do. I don't think that specific conversation needs to move on as there is no other viewpoint on that that I think is worth considering.

Of course you can. That wasn't what I meant. It just seems that if you wanted to educate you could use a less confrontational tone.

I think it is apparent that the only viewpoint allowed here is one that agrees with you. It's a shame.

Have you learnt anything in this conversation or just degraded people who share their opposing views?

This discussion has been going on for a long time Clarabell and unfortunately it is like banging my head against a brick wall, so excuse me if you find my tone confrontational, I have to say I don't much care for yours either.

Things I've learnt:
There are still women who blame themselves for their own rape, still in this day and age, people on this thread saying this awful thing happened to me and it's my fault, I am responsible, I blame myself
And no bloody wonder because look what they're up against.

JedBartlet What is 'too much'?

Depends on the individual how much will get them to the point of being very drunk.

Of course, WOMEN DRINKING ALCOHOL IS NOT CAUSING THEM TO BE RAPED. So that advice would be fucking bollocks.

This seems to conflict with your earlier agreement that being very drunk does increase the chances of falling victim? Maybe "cause" is not the right term, but "make more likely" might be.

Raping 'by accident when drunk' can you explain to me how one might rape someone 'by accident' please?

By not doing it deliberately, on purpose, while knowing that this is what they are doing? You suggested yourself that if someone is too drunk it is "less likely that they will properly check for consent" and the poster I mentioned said something similar.

Of course I might have interpreted that incorrectly. Perhaps the suggestion is not that they fail to properly check because of impaired judgment, but because the drink makes them feel it unnecesary to properly check.

Failing to properly check for consent does not equal 'accidentally' raping someone JAPAB.

Regardless of whether it's impaired judgement, or feeling it's unnecessary, or whatever, not making sure you have the consent of the person you are having sex with means you are raping them, and not by accident.

I honestly don't know what you mean by 'not doing it on purpose'. I'm not being facetious, I just honestly don't know what you mean.
'Did you rape that woman?'
'Well...yes, but I didn't do it on purpose.'

?????????????

Honestly I give up, this is too depressing to continue.

But have you learnt that or did you know that already? Surely that's the whole point of why what the judge said was so problematic to some.

Of course it is frustrating, but just sticking our fingers in our ears to anything but our own view is counterproductive.

What was your intended outcome from this conversation. Should we be writing to MPs, sharing a template letter and encouraging other to do so? Or is it just chit chat? Or something else in between?

Whoever bank rolled the tea and consent campaign obviously agreed with the belief that there is still ambiguity there.

Progress is slow and frustrating, but banging your head against the wall and shouting the loudest isn't the way forward in my opinion.

I'm genuinely sorry my tone has not been to your taste. That wasn't my intention but I do worry that any tone except pure agreement would have been unacceptable to you at this point.

Have you learnt anything in this conversation or just degraded people who share their opposing views?

I find this comment slightly staggering.

Personally, I have learnt that many, many women are still willing to defend comments that:

• feed into rape culture
• have absolutely zero effect on the incidence of rape
• do nothing to target/educate the perpetrators of the crime.

Dowager see my point above. Didn't you already know these things? What progress has been made here. Have you changed anyone's mind or just disparaged them when they told the truth about how they see things?

So JAPAB and ClarabellCow amongst others seem to believe that if women drink too much on a night out, some others have suggested getting legless (though being legless would suggest that you are unable to give consent), means that in doing so the drinker is putting themselves at risk and harm of the heinous crime of getting raped (though not so heinous in that you might not rape on purpose). Also it's clear that women should change their behaviour or just blindly trust because change is slow and banging your head against a brick wall will get you nowhere.

Well, that's cleared that up. So of course the rapist is totally to blame, or not. And women, if you're going out, don't drink. Or dress provocatively, or flirt. Oh for goodness sake, women, stay indoors. Save yourselves the pennies. After all, drink does put on the pounds.

That exactly the type of thing I'm referring to. I think there have been some interesting points raised here, but we've had to sift through the snidey nothing posts to find them.

I have asked what the action plan is. No one has answered.

I have referenced tea & consent campaign. No one responded.

Why is that?

And of course remember if you do drink women, and something bad happens, like being raped, then you will forever more blame yourself for putting yourself into that position in the first place.

Because, you had a drink, woman.

I agree with the OP Clarabell.

You obviously do not.

Now, what's YOUR plan of action?

Our action plan is being part of the worldwide 'resistance' that is building up - the recent women's marches around the world, voicing opinions online, joining in feminism groups, going to talks and panel discussions, listening and learning, protesting, not just accepting the status quo, speaking up, disagree (i.e. the point of this thread), the list goes on.

Is it effective? We don't know yet, but it's heartening to see so many people actually moved to do something and acknowledge that the same old tired advice is getting us nowhere.

I used to think like many people on this thread, but then the scales fell from my eyes.

What's your plan?

There have been 'answers' throughout the thread!

Raise sons (and I mean that to mothers AND fathers)

to be respectful of women and girls ALWAYS (yes even if they're drunk! )

including teaching them properly about consent (not just 'no means no' 🙄)

that they're NEVER entitled to sex

that harassment is not just 'banter' but is sexist and intimidating

that women and girls feel vulnerable

that uninvited groping is actually sexual assault

that drink spiking is illegal and dangerous

that a woman can say
NO/want to stop at ANY POINT and he should stop!

Teach all children

To NOT victim blame

To understand fully that rape is ONLY caused by rapists

But that misogyny and sexism contribute to rape culture.

That women have value

Show your children the links I and others have posted on consent.

I suppose one could believe that after 'sensible' advice if just one woman didn't go out drinking and then wasn't raped one could feel that they had made a difference. Whether that would actually make a difference to rape stats is perhaps a different matter.

Why rapists are presented as so passive is beyond me. It's like they're just passing the time of day, minding their own business until a drunk woman suddenly flings herself into their path and then oops! Just decided to commit a violent assault! And if there was only wall to wall sober women then the rape button wouldn't be activated.

I feel the focus on women drinking responsibly and avoiding dark alleys takes up the whole debate so there's no room to talk about rape in relationships, rape in families, date rape, friend rape, male rape etc.

"I feel the focus on women drinking responsibly and avoiding dark alleys takes up the whole debate so there's no room to talk about rape in relationships, rape in families, date rape, friend rape, male rape etc."

Exactly which I'm sure suits rapists just fine!

Graphista and handbag crab you have made some very thought provoking points throughout the discussion. I can't get to a point where I can see the judges comments without the nuances I believe she intended. But I do think you have shown me a different angle and made me question some of my subconscious beliefs.

Dowager and elemon I don't have to have a plan. This is your movement, I am a passive bystander. If you want me or others to join your cause, your behaviour in this thread has not been a good advertisement for that.

If you believe society has to change, I wouldn't think calling them fucking ridiculous and over using sarcasm is the way to go. You can't get someone to listen by beating their views down first.

If you only want people who instantly agree with you then your pressure group will be markedly smaller than it could be.

Ultimately I hope the result of your endeavours and the judges endeavours is that less people are raped.

Graphista, thank you again for so much positive information.

Glad you think so clarabell, but I understand the frustrations of the other posters you mention.

It's bad enough when men are defensive of such heinous behaviour, of the thinking and culture behind it, it's sad and difficult to understand when it's women.