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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Judge's warning to drunk women

985 replies

FirstShinyRobe · 10/03/2017 21:47

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39233617

AIBU to think she had a marvellous platform with her retirement speech to issue instead a warning to men not to rape women?

OP posts:
MrsBertBibby · 13/03/2017 18:06

But all the advice about not drinking blah blah don't tackle rape, they just possibly shift the risk from one woman to another.

A rapist will still rape someone.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 13/03/2017 18:31

I wouldn't want my daughter to be at heightened risk of harm, including rape, on a night out, so yes I'd tell her to take care and watch the drink.

I tell all my children to take care and watch the drink

Wingsofdesire · 13/03/2017 18:39

Good grief. The woman made it as clear as she possibly could that she wasn't saying that if a woman is drunk it's 'her fault' - she said:

"There is absolutely no excuse and a woman can do with her body what she wants and a man will have to adjust his behaviour accordingly," she said.

All she wanted to do - presumably after having seen so many cases of rape and feeling that she must speak up - was to give some advice to women to protect themselves.

Of COURSE you're more vulnerable if you're drunk. You might fall over. You might need physical help. You might be way more extrovert and uninhibited than if you're sober. You might walk down dark streets or talk to strangers that your sober instincts might tell you to avoid.

This doesn't mean it's OK for someone to rape you - she in no way said that!! It means just that you're easier to lure/overcome/rape!!

OMG. I can't believe this woman has had the courage to stand up and point out that it's quite dangerous to get so off your face that you barely know what you're doing, and stagger around the streets late at night, and she is being deliberately misunderstood.

Well, I for one would absolutely not get drunk like that, or passively allow my daughter to. I do think it would be dangerous. Because there are some appalling guys out there who might take advantage of it.

Also because it's a horrible thing to do, but that's by the by. As the judge said - women can do whatever they like to their bodies.

PageNowFoundFileUnderSpartacus · 13/03/2017 18:49

Do those of you who tell your sons to be careful and not get hammered ever mention it in terms of perhaps being able to help prevent a rape, or purely from the perspective of their personal safety? For the avoidance of doubt I'm not suggesting for one second that your sons will rape someone if they get too drunk, but in terms of the things I mentioned upthread - if they've got their wits about them they might notice someone who seemed a bit "off" paying a bit too much creepy attention to a woman and could alert the barman or similar.

We've tried getting women to police their own behaviour and it's not stopping rapes; we know there's limited merit in appealing directly to rapists - although I absolutely agree with continuing education in the area around enthusiastic consent. Maybe it's time to try getting men to police the behaviour of each other?

JedBartlet · 13/03/2017 18:49

charleston you've gone straight to 'people like you' without addressing any of the points I raised, but ok.

What I'm saying is that sadly, you cannot protect your daughter from rape. I hate to say that but you can't. And telling women that you can prevent SOME rape happening if you are careful enough puts a sliding scale on it where it's not at all preventable, a bit preventable, a lot preventable just opens up a scale where women are partly to blame for their own rape.

PageNowFoundFileUnderSpartacus · 13/03/2017 18:56

I'm taking it as a given that you're already having separate conversations with them about consent, respect etc because there seems to be an encouraging trend on MN for parents to teach children of both sexes, not just daughters. Do you actively encourage them to point out to their friends - who maybe haven't come from such an enlightened family - that certain ways of speaking about women is offensive, not just that they shouldn't do it themselves?

Elendon · 13/03/2017 18:58

I wouldn't want my daughter to be at heightened risk of harm, including rape, on a night out, so yes I'd tell her to take care and watch the drink.

But you wouldn't sit with her on a night out would you? You would trust your daughter to take on board your message to her. And if she got drunk anyway? Arrived home worse for the wear?

Would you be okay with her going off to University then and living an independent life and making her own decisions?

Wingsofdesire · 13/03/2017 18:58

Well you think differently when sober and would possibly avoid a threatening situation. That doesn't excuse the person creating the threatening situation, but it does mean you might escape it.

The point is, when you're vulnerable, you can't trust all guys to behave well. That's horrendous, and in no way makes it at all your fault if they take advantage, but it's the reality, and bearing that in mind might keep you safer. That's all.

You should be able to walk straight out on to a zebra crossing without looking, because it is the motorist's job to see you and stop. But there are idiots out there, so I'd always wait and check before walking. It wouldn't make it my fault if I walked straight out and someone ran me over - it would still be their fault. But that bit of carefulness might save me from someone who couldn't be trusted.

Wingsofdesire · 13/03/2017 19:00

A rapist will still rape someone.

But not me if I'm at home in bed with a cup of tea, and he's out scouring the kebab vans for a girl who can't walk straight.

PageNowFoundFileUnderSpartacus · 13/03/2017 19:00

Oops, posted too soon...it seems we need that policing effect from the culprits' peers to have any chance of changing the endemic misogyny that leads to the lack of respect and/or anger directed at women that in some individuals leads to them committing rape.

birdsdestiny · 13/03/2017 19:03

How many women on this thread have been drunk.
I will start. Yes.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 13/03/2017 19:04

page

Personal safety both for them and their friends be they male or female

But

Ds2 was very confused about consent and being drunk and we did discuss why in sex situations it was better to both be sober when having sex if only in the early days of a relationship

PageNowFoundFileUnderSpartacus · 13/03/2017 19:07

The point is, when you're vulnerable, you can't trust all guys to behave well

Compared to 99% of men, 99% of women are always vulnerable though. I'm vulnerable on the nights I work beyond 5.00pm and there's only Tom on the next team left in the building. If I stay to finish the task with the urgent deadline and Tom rapes me, where does that come on the sliding scale of how vulnerable I made myself? Who will be the first one to say a variation of "why didn't she leave when the other women did?"

Elendon · 13/03/2017 19:09

Wingsofdesire What constitutes a rapist then?

Only those out scouring kebab vans for a girl who can't walk?

I've been drunk. But my rape happened when I was sober (I was vulnerable though).

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 13/03/2017 19:11

Sorry birds can you define drunk for me

Its just i have been really drunk 4/5 times

But if i wouldn't consider myself drunk if i had a few beers...but i bet the defence lawyer would

PageNowFoundFileUnderSpartacus · 13/03/2017 19:11

Yes birds. Not so much recently but definitely when younger.

Rufus thank you for replying. That's a great start, and good guideline for your son.

Wingsofdesire · 13/03/2017 19:15

*What constitutes a rapist then?

Only those out scouring kebab vans for a girl who can't walk?*

Obviously not, and I would have said one is most vulnerable when with any man you trust, if he's a rapist. But the judge's comment was specifically about women drunk out on the streets or in clubs, etc, at night.

Elendon · 13/03/2017 19:18

Oh right Wings, she was only directing her final statement to those women who go out and get drunk, even though she said also, that that is okay? It was okay for women to drink themselves into the ground, she said.

Wingsofdesire · 13/03/2017 19:23

If I stay to finish the task with the urgent deadline and Tom rapes me, where does that come on the sliding scale of how vulnerable I made myself? Who will be the first one to say a variation of "why didn't she leave when the other women did?"

How could anybody say that you staying behind to finish your work was you asking to be raped? You should be safe always. You could be dancing in front of Tom naked and begging him to have sex with you, but if you then changed your mind and didn't want it and he went ahead then obviously he's raped you and it isn't your fault. There's no in between. It's like not hitting a woman. There's no justification, ever. off the hook.

Elendon · 13/03/2017 19:27

How could anybody say that you staying behind to finish your work was you asking to be raped?

No one asks to be raped.

Wingsofdesire · 13/03/2017 19:28

Compared to 99% of men, 99% of women are always vulnerable though.

Yes. Any time with a guy or guys who you trust. Any time you can't escape. You're always dependent on them not attacking you.

Elendon She said it was ok to do whatever you like with your body, and you shouldn't be raped, but that if you got drunk then the unfortunate reality is that you increased your likelihood of being targeted. Wrongly targeted, but still targeted.

Wingsofdesire · 13/03/2017 19:29

My partner lies on top of me and he could rape me, hurt me, kill me, do anything he wanted with me. I depend on him not doing any of those things. That's what trust is. And that's what is so beyond shocking about rape for the victim.

JedBartlet · 13/03/2017 19:32

but not me, I'll be home with a cup of tea while he scours the kebab vans

What a callous thing to say. As long as it's not you, not your problem eh?

Wingsofdesire · 13/03/2017 19:33

But the specific situation of being out of your home and in the company of potentially predatory males is in itself a risky one. Being drunk increases the risk for you. That doesn't mean you have no right to drink or you are deliberately endangering yourself - it just means that if you drink, you need to be aware that you are increasing your risk of attack. Because there isn't a (trustworthy) policeman next to each guy, and you don't know which ones you can trust.

It means that although it's wrong, the reality is that being drunk makes you more of a target. That's all.

Wingsofdesire · 13/03/2017 19:33

But the specific situation of being out of your home and in the company of potentially predatory males is in itself a risky one. Being drunk increases the risk for you. That doesn't mean you have no right to drink or you are deliberately endangering yourself - it just means that if you drink, you need to be aware that you are increasing your risk of attack. Because there isn't a (trustworthy) policeman next to each guy, and you don't know which ones you can trust.

It means that although it's wrong, the reality is that being drunk makes you more of a target. That's all.