Calling all Spartacus! Jenni needs us!

[iloveruby]

Am shamelessly posting in AIBU for traffic.

On Sunday Jenni Murray from woman's hour wrote an article saying that transwomen aren't women.

Full article here: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-females-can-never-be-real-women-says-jenni-murray-ht0xhcvrs

In light of the inevitable backlash that Jenni will / is receiving there are a number of efforts to show our support for her.

One of which is co-signing a letter to the BBC. The letter is below and anyone who would like to add their support please message me with your name and you will be added.

"There will undoubtedly be calls for Jenni Murray to leave her position with the BBC following her article of 5th March in the Sunday Times about trans women.
Whether her comments were ‘hurtful’ as Stonewall claim is irrelevant. Murray was bravely sharing her experience as a woman, a feminist and a broadcaster who has navigated a male-dominated society to enjoy a successful career.
Of course trans women have their own hurdles, but those who have spent their formative years as men will not understand the impact of the casual and institutional sexism that women are born into. That some trans women feel justified in wanting to silence Murray speaks volumes about the reality of the different ways men and women are taught and expected to behave.
It is perhaps noteworthy that Murray has made these remarks at the age of 66 with a robust and respected career to bolster her. How many others share her thoughts but are prevented from speaking out for fear of causing offence and sparking a hostile reaction?
To date the BBC has been remiss in its duty to 'educate, inform and entertain’ regarding the ideology behind gender identity. It seems the lobbying activities of groups such as Stonewall and Transmedia Watch have stymied debate, and vilified those who do not share the same viewpoint.
We stand in support of Jenni Murray, and in support of free speech. Please do not cave into the demands to end Murray’s career. The BBC has few older women in positions of seniority, and it would be to the detriment of both audiences and the reputation of the BBC if you were to remove her from post.
Yours"

I am not the author of the letter - that is an amazing women on facebook called Maggie who has organised this.

If anyone would like to add their name directly via facebook let me know and I will send you the link.

I am Spartacus! I am Jenni!

What's the definition of a male heart and brain ?

Monkeymummy, you list a set of biological differences and then chuck in 'heart and brain are male'. What makes them male? How can anyone judge who is male or female in the absence of any objective criterion whatever?

Or a female heart and brain?

Monkey, that makes people intersex. Not transgender. Being transgender has nothing to do with intersex conditions and is utterly irrelevant. Associations for intersex people have repeatedly asked the transgender lobby to stop them from using them in inaccurate and misleading comparisons but they won't. Because apparently their feelings don't matter.

What was it that you disagreed with in Jenni's article? (I'll suggest you ignore the title, as they're generally written by the subs rather than the authors.)

And you can be male because you have two X chromosomes, but your heart and brain are male. And vice - effing - versa. Don't use science to justify your bigotry."

No, you really can't. There is no scientific evidence for "male and female brains" somehow being present in bodies of the opposite sex.

Also, you might want to get out a dictionary and read the definitions of "male" and "female". It is all about biology. It is not possible to become the opposite sex

Monkey let's see your peer reviewed published evidence please.

I'd be interested to learn about the definition of a "male heart and brain".

and you use that position to cast doubt upon another marginalised group, using your opinion & not amplifying the voices of people who are actually from that marginalised group, Why would you amplify the voices of the so called marginalised group if you are casting doubts on them?

I think that biology teacher needs to go back to school. I really hope I don't get a 'science' teacher that's such a woolly thinker teaching my kids. I saw this on my Facebook feed from someone I really like. To my shame the didn't challenge it.

I'm sure biology teachers share all sorts of bullshit on Facebook! Monkey the fact that the "biology teacher" shared it doesn't make it fact. The last bit is complete nonsense. Male heart and brain in a genetically XX body? No, you'd have brain and heart cells with XX in them just like every other cell in that body. Produce me some peer reviewed published research that proves specific, non donor transplanted, organs of the opposite sex developed from conception in a genetically normal XX /XY human being and then I'll believe you. Don't believe everything you read on Facebook

A study here has small numbers (24 individuals) but says 'Results revealed that regional gray matter variation in MTF transsexuals is more similar to the pattern found in men than in women. However, the MTF transsexuals show a larger volume of regional gray matter in the right putamen compared to men.'

It then goes on to say 'Further research needs to resolve whether the observed features in the brains influence their gender identity or are a consequence of being transsexual.'

So, some differences, but not 'a female brain in a male body'.

Incidentally, if you are even going to do the research, you, erm, need to define 'man' and 'woman' in the first place. Which the researchers did, by looking at the chromosomes.

Oh, and they caution that as they had 18 MTF individuals attracted to women and only 6 attracted to men*, they also need to disentangle sexual orientation from the results.

*I got mixed up rather over which of these they called homo and heterosexual.

Monkeymummy's ignorance is shocking, I'd say: confusing intersex and trans is pretty bloody ignorant.

Monkey, can you give us examples from this thread of posters 'attacking a minority group?
TIA

Or have you dumped-n-run like so many others?

So did the Facebook group actually materialise?

Getting into the biology is complex and not something I know enough about. However like Monkeymummy, I always liked Jenni Murray but I do think her comments are a little blinkered and unhelpful. Saying that you cannot be a true woman unless you have experienced mysogiony is just a strange thing to say! It's like saying that women can't exist without male abuse and in my view is kind of self-defeating and anti-feminist. And trans people have it so difficult already, already so stigmatised and bullied. This kind of article by a respected mainstream broadcaster is just not helpful. :-(

Can someone PM me the FB link?

Yes do let's make a stand against those yukky trans people.

God, MN apparent CONSTANT official sanctioning of this hatred makes me barf.

And OP, I sincerely hope you get to know some transwomen personally,, Then you might knock off this vicious nonsense.

Stigmatised and bullied. Trans women.

Not with Bruce Jenner now Caitlin. Bruce Jenner remains on the internet as an Olympic athlete who won gold medals for his country.

the warning here was deserved.

Do you really think so monkeymummy? I realise everyone is entitled to their own opinions but I personally saw nothing wrong with what Jenni Murray said and I think it's appalling that she's been given a warning over it.

I think Jenni Murray has a lot of sympathy for trans women like myself and she realises that we have a hard time. However she also understands that we are biologically male and no amount of clothes, hormones, surgery, etc will change that.

I am not a woman. I am a trans woman and I have no problem with that fact being pointed out. I also have no problem with being told that my life experience is different to that of a woman. Acknowledging that fact does not mean we think trans women are not important. Biology is not bigotry.

Speaking of biology, I am a little concerned that a biology teacher doesn't seem to know the difference between intersex and trans

I have also complained to the BBC about her warning.