Calling all Spartacus! Jenni needs us!

[iloveruby]

Am shamelessly posting in AIBU for traffic.

On Sunday Jenni Murray from woman's hour wrote an article saying that transwomen aren't women.

Full article here: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-females-can-never-be-real-women-says-jenni-murray-ht0xhcvrs

In light of the inevitable backlash that Jenni will / is receiving there are a number of efforts to show our support for her.

One of which is co-signing a letter to the BBC. The letter is below and anyone who would like to add their support please message me with your name and you will be added.

"There will undoubtedly be calls for Jenni Murray to leave her position with the BBC following her article of 5th March in the Sunday Times about trans women.
Whether her comments were ‘hurtful’ as Stonewall claim is irrelevant. Murray was bravely sharing her experience as a woman, a feminist and a broadcaster who has navigated a male-dominated society to enjoy a successful career.
Of course trans women have their own hurdles, but those who have spent their formative years as men will not understand the impact of the casual and institutional sexism that women are born into. That some trans women feel justified in wanting to silence Murray speaks volumes about the reality of the different ways men and women are taught and expected to behave.
It is perhaps noteworthy that Murray has made these remarks at the age of 66 with a robust and respected career to bolster her. How many others share her thoughts but are prevented from speaking out for fear of causing offence and sparking a hostile reaction?
To date the BBC has been remiss in its duty to 'educate, inform and entertain’ regarding the ideology behind gender identity. It seems the lobbying activities of groups such as Stonewall and Transmedia Watch have stymied debate, and vilified those who do not share the same viewpoint.
We stand in support of Jenni Murray, and in support of free speech. Please do not cave into the demands to end Murray’s career. The BBC has few older women in positions of seniority, and it would be to the detriment of both audiences and the reputation of the BBC if you were to remove her from post.
Yours"

I am not the author of the letter - that is an amazing women on facebook called Maggie who has organised this.

If anyone would like to add their name directly via facebook let me know and I will send you the link.

I am Spartacus! I am Jenni!

I've read the article previously, thanks, Rakey. It was very interesting. It doesn't apply to the people interviewed by Jenni Murray.

Trans people's lives are in danger the more we perpetuate hurtful ideas.
And women's lives will be in danger if self-definition becomes the bar for who is a woman. Self-definition will be used by dodgy men to get themselves into women's prisons and refuges and God knows where else.

Intersectional feminism is inclusive of tran people because ignoring them is just playing into the patriarchal view of gender.
Did you see Julie Bindel and Jane Fae on Sky News yesterday? If anyone was playing into the patriarchal view of gender, it was Jane (a transwoman), with nail varnish, lots of make-up, clattery jewellery and a flowery top. Julie, yer akshul XX feminist person, had short hair and wore black. A great deal of the trans agenda actually pushes patriarchal ideas of gender very strongly.

Rakey

Transwomen and transmen can have their own rights, and status, and spaces, and campaigns. The reason transwomen are targeted is because they are perceived as men presenting as women, it's not the same reason that women are targeted.

If telling a transwoman that she is not a biological woman leads to suicide, I suggest she seeks help from a mental health professional.

It is really not the business of the population to collude in a lie for the sake of someone's mental health. It is the job of the medical professional to deal with.

lumela spot on post

Rakey

At 12.06 you wrote

Intersectional feminism is inclusive of tran people because ignoring them is just playing into the patriarchal view of gender.

You may not have brought it up but you have commented on it. I agree that you don't understand what intersectional feminism is about. Clue: it's not about picking and choosing.

Thanks, Doyou

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/19/young-transgender-suicide-attempts-survey

Argh meant to PM, have reported self!

I'm outraged that the BBC has warned her and I'll complain too

rakey

The only reason that that study has been picked up by anybody at all is because the group mermaids implied it was a study of 2000 transgendered people. When in actual fact it was 27.

No scientist would ever say that 27 was a representative sample of anything at all.

can you live with your ideas contributing to the increased suicide amongst trans people

They kill themselves because of biological truth?

Yeah. Because all the rapes, trafficking, domestic violence, the pay gap, that bird jumping in front of a horse (fink her name was Pankhurst or summat)... that all means fuck all right? As long as a male human can go into female wards, use female toilets, use female refuges, THATS what is important. Right? RIGHT?!

Wrong.

If 40% of trans children were attempting suicide, and that was converted to success rates according to the Samaritans, you would see a transgender teen killng themselves of the rate of one a week in the U.K. And 2 to 3 a week in the US. Clearly not happening.

I've complained to the BBC
This trans agenda is patriarchal bullshit

I have emailed WH and complained to the BBC

Instead of retaliating, consider how you would feel if you discovered that your son actually identified as a girl & look at all the hatred they would be up against. This isn't something you can say "no I don't agree" and it will go away. Trans people's lives are in danger the more we perpetuate hurtful ideas.

Yes. But. Transphobia is not the same phenomenon as sexism - they're related but they aren't the same. It is important to keep gender issues separate from sex issues, just as it's important to keep them separate from race issues or disability issues. You can't address the underlying issues if you haven't accurately identified them.

It's probably possible to measure how much difference the various disadvantages affect us - maybe a statistician could tell us that on average being male is worth an extra £1000 a year but being able-bodied is worth £6000, and so on. Or that being white is a 10% protective factor against violence but being female is a 40% risk factor. (All numbers made up, obvs.)

But it would be utterly wrong to use that data to say "being disabled is more disadvantageous than being female, so we're going to convert all women's refuges into blue badge parking zones" rather than "... so we must look at increasing funding for disability payments / support workers / improving accessible public transport".

When the loudest transactivists want to get access to women's safe spaces and resources no questions asked, it becomes a zero-sum game. As though there's a total amount of special consideration available in the world and some must be taken from women in general and reallocated to only women who were born male. NO. NO. NO. There must be more special consideration provided in total and the extra given to those who need it and haven't already been provided for.

pm'd
cheers SBL.

This issue tears me apart in terms of what I think.

I support anyone's right to be who they fundamentally feel they are, man, woman, whomever. I believe that they should be supported to be who they are.

But I also agree that there is a small subsection of people who WILL use the current trans situation to their own advantage and who have the potential to become a menace to women in their supposed safe places. OBVIOUSLY "not all trans" - just like "not all men" are predatory rapists, but some are.

It's not transphobic to say "leave women their safe spaces" - it's predatorphobic. And some people who self-identify as trans are predators.

I don't think Jenni Murray deserves a warning for what she has said, because what she has said is actual truth.

Men who have always felt that they are female, and who have always wanted to transition, but who have spent the majority of their lives as a man can NOT hope to understand what it is like to have been a young girl, female teen, young woman - because they have not BEEN that person.

Men who have felt all that and always wanted to transition AND have spent all their lives as ostensibly female will be much closer to understanding how women are treated in society but will STILL be missing the biological experiences of femaleness. They might be envious of missing these, they might wish they could have experienced them but the fact remains that they didn't.

It's not transphobic to point that out. It is not a hatred of trans people, nor a fear of trans people, to point out that, factually, they do not have the same experience of life as most women who were born and grew up as women.

The eggshell treading about terminology is becoming somewhat ridiculous - the term "woman" is becoming unusable in case it offends trans women - why?? If trans women are so keen to join the underclass of womanhood, then why are they so keen to perpetuate the (largely male) oppression of said underclass of womanhood? Why are they not striving to help equalise the male and the female?

I'm all in favour of trans people having equal rights. But women should still have their rights protected too.

The thing is thumb when you say 'not all trans', I have yet to see any who don't have even a slight underlying sexism (possible exceptions being Miranda Yardley and Helen Highwater).

Their perception of women is coloured by both their sex and their fundamental lack of knowledge and experience of what being a woman is or entails. It is an idea of women from the point of view of a man. Hence it is either hyper sexualised or 'girly'. There is nothing in the perception that actually relates to women as people.

Even well intentioned transwomen start to show their ignorance (and I don't mean that as an insult) when you scratch below the surface.

I'm quite sure there are many who don't mean harm to women, but I can still see, quite clearly, that they aren't women when I engage.

Christ, though, who'd want half the inescapable aspects of womanhood? Wish I could identify out of the bloody periods for a start.

I really wish a proper, open, calm conversation was possible with the trans people I know, or anyone online. Damned if I know what constitutes 'woman' as a category if it includes me and India Willoughby. What do we have in common that we don't share with 'men'?

www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/seen-missing-woman-dressed-man-seen-derbyshire/story-29207361-detail/story.html

Self identification allows this woman to rape two teenagers and have her feelings protected.

I fully support Jenni.

DJ

On another thread a poster's FB friends are hoping that the victim's claim they were raped by a woman in order to support the rapist's gender identity.

So fucked up.

As a kind of aside, isn't that an impossibility in that the legal definition of "rape" involves penetration with a penis and therefore cannot be perpetrated by someone without one? So it seems unlikely that the victims are going to claim that. They're going to claim they were raped by a man dressed as a woman, because a penis was involved.

Wow, the ignorance here is shocking. I normally love JM and Women's Hour but the warning here was deserved. Aside from the way many here are attacking a minority group already the victims of a huge amount of prejudice, the biology is not as straightforward as people think.

Aside from the huge variety in the animal kingdom, in humans alone it is not a case of being XX or XY and that's it. I've copied the below from a post shared by a biology teacher on Facebook, as I think some of you need to read it.

"You can be male because you were born female, but you have 5-alphareductase deficiency and so you grew a penis at age 12. You can be female because you have an X and a Y chromosome but you are insensitive to androgens, and so you have a female body. You can be female because you have an X and a Y chromosome but your Y is missing the SRY gene, and so you have a female body. You can be male because you have two X chromosomes, but one of your X's HAS an SRY gene, and so you have a male body. You can be male because you have two X chromosomes- but also a Y. You can be female because you have only one X chromosome at all. And you can be male because you have two X chromosomes, but your heart and brain are male. And vice - effing - versa. Don't use science to justify your bigotry."