Calling all Spartacus! Jenni needs us!

[iloveruby]

Am shamelessly posting in AIBU for traffic.

On Sunday Jenni Murray from woman's hour wrote an article saying that transwomen aren't women.

Full article here: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-females-can-never-be-real-women-says-jenni-murray-ht0xhcvrs

In light of the inevitable backlash that Jenni will / is receiving there are a number of efforts to show our support for her.

One of which is co-signing a letter to the BBC. The letter is below and anyone who would like to add their support please message me with your name and you will be added.

"There will undoubtedly be calls for Jenni Murray to leave her position with the BBC following her article of 5th March in the Sunday Times about trans women.
Whether her comments were ‘hurtful’ as Stonewall claim is irrelevant. Murray was bravely sharing her experience as a woman, a feminist and a broadcaster who has navigated a male-dominated society to enjoy a successful career.
Of course trans women have their own hurdles, but those who have spent their formative years as men will not understand the impact of the casual and institutional sexism that women are born into. That some trans women feel justified in wanting to silence Murray speaks volumes about the reality of the different ways men and women are taught and expected to behave.
It is perhaps noteworthy that Murray has made these remarks at the age of 66 with a robust and respected career to bolster her. How many others share her thoughts but are prevented from speaking out for fear of causing offence and sparking a hostile reaction?
To date the BBC has been remiss in its duty to 'educate, inform and entertain’ regarding the ideology behind gender identity. It seems the lobbying activities of groups such as Stonewall and Transmedia Watch have stymied debate, and vilified those who do not share the same viewpoint.
We stand in support of Jenni Murray, and in support of free speech. Please do not cave into the demands to end Murray’s career. The BBC has few older women in positions of seniority, and it would be to the detriment of both audiences and the reputation of the BBC if you were to remove her from post.
Yours"

I am not the author of the letter - that is an amazing women on facebook called Maggie who has organised this.

If anyone would like to add their name directly via facebook let me know and I will send you the link.

I am Spartacus! I am Jenni!

I've just replied to your PM RTKangaMummy - I can put a shout out to the original authors of the letter if no one here can do it. Or, I can do it if it is anonymous....

Just got this mealy mouthed response to my complaint.

Dear

Thanks for contacting us regarding Jenni Murray’s comments about transgender women.

Jenni Murray is a freelance journalist and these were her own views; however she has been reminded that presenters should remain impartial on controversial topics covered by their BBC programmes.

Please be assured that your concerns have been noted for the attention of BBC management.

Thanks again for taking the time to get in touch.

Kind Regards

BBC Complaints Team
www.bbc.co.uk/complaints

I just feel like giving whoever wrote it a slap across their smug little face.
It's not controversial, it's stating the bleeding (intended) obvious.

I got the exact same respons Sloany. I have responded by complaining again (text below)

Really, you call this an answer? I call it mealy-mouthed tangential avoidance.

"Jenni Murray is a freelance journalist and these were her own views; however she has been reminded that presenters should remain impartial on controversial topics covered by their BBC programmes."

I will repeat the last two paragraphs of my complaint, and this time I want answers, not claptrap.

There is an upcoming second reading in parliament of the Gender Identity (Protected Characteristic) Bill 2016-17, which will enshrine self-identification. So any male, transgender or not, merely has to claim that he feels like a woman, and it would be illegal to deny him entry to women's sex-segregated spaces (note - sex-segregated, not gender-segregated). No hormones, no surgery, doesn't even have to shave and dress like a woman - just say that 's how he feels. Such spaces include women's prisons, hospital wards, domestic violence refuges. I have seen NOTHING on the BBC about this bill. How is that 'neutral'?

I cannot express how disappointed I am in the BBC over all this. It has shaken my faith in the veracity of your news coverage, which until now I have always depended upon. When other news coverage is so blatantly partisan, I thought I could trust you. But through your treatment of this one topic, a topic on which I have sought to inform myself, I find you fall woefully short. What about all the other topics where I have not sought more information than your coverage? What is missing from my knowledge, because the BBC decided that I didn't need to know that? you have lied by omission.

Good response

I clicked the link in the OP but it said:

"The owner of www.thetimes.co.uk has configured their web site improperly. To protect your information from being stolen, Firefox has not connected to this web site."

scottishdiem - my definition is a person's sex is decided at the moment of conception by which sperm fertilizes the egg, some have female genes and imprint those into every cell in the baby's body, some have male genes and imprint those into every cell in the baby's body, and some sex genes are awry, or become so, resulting in rare, specific chromosomal abnormalities which can affect sexual characteristics and fertility. That body, male or female or indeterminate, then determines the lifelong biological, medical, and societal experiences of the person.

Accurate, but not snappy, sorry.

TumblTrans I want you to know that I've just signed up to Mumsnet just so that I could tell you I've just signed up to Mumsnet because of you :D

Tumble, maybe you could email and they could read your email out? You express yourself so well and the BBC rarely includes the voices or viewpoints of trans women who disagree with all this.

This article is a good start:

www.yahoo.com/style/biology-teacher-destroyed-transphobic-myths-224705057.html

If a person is trans, they're entire life experience is far more complicated than many people here seem willing to credit.

Socialisation is not a clear-cut or simple process. If a person's brain, consciously or unconsciously, understands them to be male or female, then they absorb all the tacit socialisation around them in society. If you don't believe that tacit socialisation is a powerful and often more pervasive force than direct socialisation, talk to parents who have attempted to raise our kids neutrally. Its an uphill struggle, tacit socialisation creeps in from all around. If I had a trans kid, it would be no different, its just that the gender socialisation they absorb would be principally that which we associate with women as opposed to men.

As this article states, it is dangerous and reprehensible that, especially in these times of increasing intolerance and hatred, a privileged, cis-gendered, rich, white, able-bodied woman would sow seeds of dissent and division amongst women. Its not feminist, its bigoted.

There is a particular problem of privilege on mumsnet and in white feminism in general.

Black and disabled sisters, for the most part, stand with trans sisters.
I'm ashamed more of my lesbian community don't, as all women need to stand together, especially with a racist, rapist, misogynist in the whitehouse and our PM, who should stand with us as sisters, instead cozies up to him.

If you want to look to someone who betrays us to the patriarchy and truely harms women and girls, look to Theresa May.

• and yes, I know I misused "They're," up all night and early for school run, so give me a break ;)

Also, I notice I wrote, "If I had a trans kid, it would be no different, its just that the gender socialisation they absorb would be principally that which we associate with women as opposed to men."

Of course I mean, if I had a trans-girl. Yes trans-boys exist too (my best friend has a trans-boy for a son,) and some people on here could maybe do with talking to some transmen as well, if you don't believe trans folk are truly their identified gender.

You OK with non-privileged, poor or disabled women objecting to willies in their changing rooms and prisons, then, Diva?

If a person is trans, their entire life experience is far more complicated than many people here seem willing to credit.

No doubt. I'm confident Jenni Murray said that, though

She merely said that it isn't the same complications as women-born-female face, and that women-born-male tend not to have a full appreciation of those until they are more immersed.

The BBC reply is batshit. So Jeremy Clarkson could spout all sorts of offensive stuff in his Sunday Times column, and that's OK because it wasn't about topics covered by Top Gear?

And I'm fairly sure that I've seen articles by John Humphrys and Justin Webb expressing opinions on controversial topics, despite those topics being covered by the Today programme.

It's hard to avoid the conclusion that Murray is being targeted because she's female. Well, plus ca fucking change.

DivaDyke

Are you seriously saying that someone born male who then transitions as an adult to female would have subconsciously absorbed all the oppression females suffer because that is who they identify with?

Give me a fucking break.

Have you ever had even three seconds discourse online with a transwomen you would realise what crap that is. It's not a question of sexism or misogyny, only a question of how much.

I'm disabled. I've spoken about trans issues to many of my fellow-disabled female friends.

We agree with Jenni.

I don't appreciate being told what I think. Funnily enough, no one has ever asked me for my views.

Here's John Humphrys expressing some opinions:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11576461/John-Humphrys-Where-did-this-general-election-go-so-wrong.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2382198/JOHN-HUMPHRYS-shift-public-mood-benefit-dependency-Britains-age-entitlement.html

And Justin Webb:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4115638/Bad-news-Trump-haters-bonkers-popular-writes-JUSTIN-WEBB.html

FUMING. So gender socialisation is a bad thing. But so much worse for people who identify as the opposite sex because they absorb the gender socialisation from the opposite sex, but have the genitals of their actual sex.

And this should be given civil rights to the detriment of women, because WHY???

DivaDyke that link you posted is describing intersex conditions, is it not?

Intersex and trans are not the same thing.

If a biology teacher doesn't know the difference between intersex and trans then quite frankly we're fucked.

Gaby Hinsliff has waded in against Murray:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/09/trans-cis-let-women-be-what-they-want-jenni-murray-artificial-definitions-feminine

Contains this bizarre sentence:

"For if womanhood is defined as the sum of everything that has ever happened to a woman because of her gender, then logically nobody born with male organs can ever quite attain it."

Next she'll be telling us that cats will never be able to attain the status of dogs, no matter however much they desire it.

I sent the bbc a complimentory letter regarding jenni. Quiteaching seriously saying how proud I was she had spoken up and that if they have her do more of the sane I might be inclinded to become a viewer.

I thought I'd see if that gets a different response

Intersex people have expressly asked, in writing, in a public letter, that they are not co-opted to support transgenderism.

"We are constantly trying to get away from the idea that intersex is necessarily to do with gender identity, a notion that others (including the press/media) like to impose on us."

"We are not happy with the recent tendency of some trans groups/people to promote transgender as an umbrella term to encompass, for example, transsexuality, transvestitism and intersex."

Seriously though, HTF does a BIOLOGY TEACHER of all people not understand the difference between transgendered and intersex? Very concerning.

I thought it was biology teacher. I'm sure I read biology teacher elsewhere but I may be wrong.

I still stand by what I said; a science teacher should still know the difference. Worrying that they don't.