Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

to think that a known bully shouldn't be rewarded

248 replies

Konmariconvert · 01/03/2017 16:42

I do name change periodically and this is my first post under my latest name change.

My ds YR4 (and two other boys) have separately been the victim of bullying in school by the same boy. Unbeknown to me at the time the other boys parents have been into school at different times over the last 6 months. The bullying was nasty and bully boy got his groupies to get in the act too.

This boy has been dealt with by the head, who incidentally believed every word I was saying about this boy. I don't know if sanctions were issued but frankly I just wanted the bullying to stop. This boy has calmed down and ds keeps a wide birth. He's back to his normal self and would tell me if not.

Here's the thing... school have just picked their football team, only 10 boys were picked from 40, bully boy has been given a spot. Part of me thinks this is wrong and sends the wrong message to bully boys victims and their parents given that this was only dealt with very recently.

OP posts:
ZackyVengeance · 01/03/2017 23:32

ZZZz Its not an on going punishment. its telling a child, the bully, that they have to behave, to not be a bully before they get a reward.
in this case it was football, in another it could be a school trip or something else.
\but after one week do you really think a child will have changed?

Userone1 · 01/03/2017 23:37

Zzzz catch yourself on means understand what is meant or how to do something according to google!

I've been called fucking stupid and am I for real and a parent of a bully.

So just insults for anyone with a differing opinion it seems

Konmariconvert · 01/03/2017 23:39

zzzzz stop being a goady fucker, I'm not biting! And besides it doesn't suit you... or maybe it does Wink

To all the parents struggling with a situation like mine, please take comfort that you are doing the very best for your child by standing up for them in this situation. Sending you all strength to carry on the fight against injustice.

OP posts:
Fighterofthenightman · 01/03/2017 23:43

I don't know your son and never said I did. I said it's not an unusual thing for children to say when feeling overwhelmed and distressed and not knowing how to express that. As all the 'I'm a shit Mum because my DC just said they wish they were dead' because I said x or y threads on MN support.

I was saying it's not outside the norm. Children can't understand their emotions and process them in ways that adults can because that's part of maturing. Their emotions are so powerful and overwhelming and confusing.

I wish I was dead from a 9 year old means a different thing to I wish I was dead from a 15 year old or 21 year old. Same as I wish I had a different family or I wish I didn't know any of you or I wish I had a different Mum and Dad.

zzzzz · 01/03/2017 23:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Shamefulsecrets · 01/03/2017 23:54

Konmar, I was agreeing with you upthread and I think you should find out how he's been disciplined. I bet the school has just allowed him to say sorry and that's it, which isn't good enough.

I was severely bullied as a child and its affected my whole life; I have very low self esteem and find it hard to trust others or believe that I'm likeable.
My dc was badly bullied and all the school ever did was get them to say sorry. Like it made any difference!! We ended up moving to get away from it.

Everyone's always so concerned about the bully, but what about the victim? They are actually the innocent party in this.

I really don't give a shit if the bully had a hard life, that's not an excuse for bullying and doesn't give anyone free rein to be cruel. Lots of people have hard lives and still manage to be nice people, so it doesn't wash with me.

The difference is, is that the bully is inflicting their pain on someone else...."I'm sad, angry, have a shitty home life, etc, so I'm gonna make everyone else suffer too" type mentality, whereas the victim (who may have an equally hard life) isn't.

So I have no sympathy for someone who persistently bullies someone else, whatever their age, and I don't think they are punished severely enough.

Userone1 · 02/03/2017 00:03

konmar have you addressed your concerns with school? I know you said you spoke to the HT, what are the school going to do about their bullying issue?

Konmariconvert · 02/03/2017 00:10

zzzzz Yes' I'm aware of ABA.

But you and I both know the difference between a child behaving in a negative way due to triggers (sensory etc ) and a child that is put on such a pedestal by parents/grandparents that they really believe their own hype.

This boy that bullied my son and two other children has a very entitled attitude. He is the best at everything, what he has is better than anyone else's, he is smarter than everyone else... he is the best at all sports. I've seen him in action and he's certainly knows how to work a crowd of impressionable 9 year old!

This type of attitude tends to develop into a sense of "I can do what I like" simply because they are never told no by most of the people around them.

Really am done now...

OP posts:
Annahibiscuits · 02/03/2017 00:13

I have sent you a DM kon

Userone1 · 02/03/2017 00:21

"It is human nature to focus on the negative. Maybe it is our survival instinct to hyperfocus on the negative, out of fear and anxiety. As a behavior specialist, one of the principles I learned over the years is we tend to inadvertently promote what we focus on; that which we throw our attention at. This is very evident with our children who display challenging behaviors. The challenging behaviors bring out the emotion in us, and we react with high intensity. What we often do not realize is the more we react and give attention to the negative, the more “value” we give to it. The more we focus on it, the more we see it. The behavior and the emotions tend to spiral out of control, with all parties getting frustrated and angry.

This principle applies to everyone. Whether it is marriage conflicts, employee/ employer relationships, parent/child conflicts, etc. When we focus on the negative, throw our attention at it and intensively react to it, it tends to increase. When we hyperfocus on the negative, we spotlight and highlight it, and inadvertently foster it. As the vicious cycle continues, both the adults and children become more frustrated, angry, and controlling. Unfortunately for all, the problem often escalates.

What people often do not realize is the “attention” and “emotion” given to a behavior will often reinforce it to occur more frequently. This is often evident with giving praise for good behavior, but also for giving negative reactions to challenging behavior. Whether the child likes the negative attention or not, the attention often increases the frequency of the challenging behavior. Either the child feels the control they see in the emotional reactions of others, enjoys manipulating what he wants by creating such attention, or hates the negative reactions and acts out more out of frustration. Regardless of the reasons for the challenging behavior, our attention to it often fosters it.

Another concept in psychology is we tend to identify with what others highlight in us. If others tend to spotlight and highlight our negative qualities we tend to identify ourselves with those qualities. If we are labeled and treated like a bad, lazy, oppositional, inadequate person, we will become that person. Our self identities tend to mirror what others project on us. When we label a child a bully, we focus on his bad behavior, expect it out of him, and he identifies with those expectations. If we expect the child to act out when working with him, we will look for the behavior, are quick to interpret all behavior in a negative light, expect it to occur, and then give added attention to it when it happens. The child begins to see himself as “being that way”, because that is him.

Often when meeting with parents, teachers, administrators, and professionals , about 90% of the discussion is centered around the child’s challenging behaviors (why is it occurring, what are the triggers, what consequences will reduce it, etc.) as if these behaviors define the child. I can get caught up in this myself. After listening to this discussion for some time I usually have to interrupt the discussion and ask “what does the child do right?” What are his positive behaviors and attributes? When he is not acting out, what positive things does he do, say, and engage in. We are often so focused on the negative behavior we fail to notice the positive. We start to define the child as a problem. This is because of our natural instinct is to reaction to the negative. It colors our vision, and directs our focus.

In behavioral language we often “baseline” the negative behavior (document how often it occurs, for how long it occurs, and how intense it is). We immediately start looking for it, expecting it, and sometimes inadvertently creating it. I find that it is often better to have parents and teachers first start with documenting what the child is doing right! What his good attributes are, when he is being good, and under what conditions is he at his best. “Catch him being good, attend to it, and document it.

People are at first annoyed by this, because of their hyperfocus on reducing the negative behavior. They want to turn the attention back to the negative behavior, as if that will somehow stop it. However, if they take a few weeks to simply focus on the good behavior, making an emphasis to praise and attend to it, and learn to create conditions for the good behavior to occur, not only does the good behavior start to occur more frequently, but the negative behavior starts to decrease significantly. When we tend to change our focus to “spotlighting and highlighting” the positive in the child, we actually become less reactive to the negative, stop hyperfocusing on it, and reduce the expectation for it to occur. When our attention is turned to the positive, what the child is doing right, there is little time, energy, or need for the negative behavior"

zzzzz · 02/03/2017 06:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mugglebumthesecond · 02/03/2017 07:03

I was very clear in my post at putting the blame on the adults who were supervising, teaching and guiding the 'bully' and not the victim.

mugglebumthesecond · 02/03/2017 07:04

Userone, thanks for that, wry interesting and informative!

youarenotkiddingme · 02/03/2017 07:31

I'm a massive advocate for behaviour is a form of communication.

I also have a child with autism. He has been bullied severely and also said some horrific things to others - which has always been accepted is out of not understanding.

But.... I do worry that as things have improved massively in the understanding of behaviour and of SEN we have moved away too much from having consequences for behaviour. This is not reflective of the real world.

Negative behaviour towards others has consequences - a great example above was in the workplace. I believe that their needs to be a natural consequence to behaviour but that it MUST be alongside the right support to learn what's acceptable.

In this case I would have said the boy needs to be told his behaviour is unacceptable. Given support to change it with a reward at the end. So if he wants to join the team he earns it. Positive input about how well he played and that he has a reward chart and if after a month he's continued to show he can work well with his peers then he can join the fot ball team with them. It doesn't need to be 'punishment' but rather an explanation of expectation with clearly defined targets and an explanation on the positive consequences of behaving that way.

Iys the same process I've had to go through with my Ds due to his sen. When he couldn't go to certain activities because he couldn't manage and was hurting others we set small targets, took small steps and built up being able to attend. I wouldn't call it punishment that he couldn't go to swimming club with his peers (which is the same thing as saying this boy can't join the team -yet) I saw it as teaching him the skills he needs to keep him and others safe when there.
He now trains 2 times a week for an hour with them.

Konmariconvert · 02/03/2017 08:24

zzzzz please respect the fact that I know this family very well... this boy does not have Aspergers. You are suggesting this just from my account of him, which is wrong. No every child with behavioural problems has a SEN. In this boys case his parents have told anyone that will listen that the problem is will the bullied boys, not their son. They will not have sided with the school and reinforced the message at home, because In their eyes he is perfect. Anyhow we will just have to agree to disagree on this point. I do agree with some of your points and I can assure you that none of my reactions come from wanting revenge, wanting justice is more my style.

You are I agree I believe as a society the scales have balanced too far in the wrong direction. Yes we need to incentivise to help perpetrators modify their behaviour, but this also needs to be coupled with consequences too.

We have taken a very similar approach with my son with ASD, and it's working really well, he is now fully integrated into certain activities alongside his brother.

OP posts:
seagazer · 02/03/2017 08:35

In my experience teachers are often a bit intimidated by the bullies parents, if a reasonably good child steps out of line there are often consequences, the bully (with the crap parents) not so much. The bully gets away with far more than a normally well behaved child would.

fairweathercyclist · 02/03/2017 08:41

footballers seem to get away with all sorts yet are still treated like gods to be worshipped

I don't disagree with this - referees in particualr seem to have no backbone at all. I'd have most of the players on yellow cards within minutes!

But some people say that sport was what turned their lives around. Mo Farah for one. I think other well-known sportspeople have said if it wasn't for sport, they'd be in jail. I'm not sure football is the way forward in that sense, because I've seen how it makes players, coaches and parents behave - but I'd rather a disruptive element be busy playing football than bullying my child or causing other trouble in school.

zzzzz · 02/03/2017 09:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Userone1 · 02/03/2017 09:29

Wanting revenge, justice etc. Surely the outcome everyone wants is for the bullying behaviour to stop.

Some think punish, punish, punish until it stops. Punishment does not teach a new, better behaviour. I'm not suggesting bullies should not have consequences, just that punishment and escalating more punishment, without any other measures, is clearly ineffective as it's repeated time and time again.

bigearsthethird · 02/03/2017 09:44

userone1
*Wanting revenge, justice etc. Surely the outcome everyone wants is for the bullying behaviour to stop.

Some think punish, punish, punish until it stops. Punishment does not teach a new, better behaviour. I'm not suggesting bullies should not have consequences, just that punishment and escalating more punishment, without any other measures, is clearly ineffective as it's repeated time and time again.*

This isn't punish punish punish though is it? Its simply a case of the school rewarding a child for his attrocious behaviour. Alot of schools are not dealing with bullying effectively, clearly. That is the purpose of this post. A 9 year old will continue bad behaviour if there are no consequences to it. You can tell them till you are blue in the face that it is wrong, but until their life starts getting affected and they start losing out, they wont stop.

seagazer This is spot on. I spoke with my ds teacher on numerous occasions about this bully - who was repeatedly bullying its been 3 years now on and off. Their response for when HE made the football team above all the well behaved children was that 'they have to give these types of children bigger rewards'. WTF.

This child has also attended ALL school trips and has been picked more than anyone else for other fun stuff in the school where there were limited places. Despte the fact he had been physically violent with other children on regular occasions. He also swears that the teachers. And no he does not have SEN. My ds said to me if he were naughty, he'd get to do loads more as he rarely got picked for anything because he isn't badly behaved at school. I don't like the message that is giving my child.

Userone1 · 02/03/2017 10:06

Bigears removing something or excluding a child from something is a punishment. We don't know that there were no consequences to the child's behaviour, neither does the OP. When she spoke to HT she did not find out what the consequences were.

ZackyVengeance · 02/03/2017 10:13

"I'm not suggesting bullies should not have consequences"
yes you are. as you think that one week later the bully should be picked for a place on much sought after team.
the bully will now have learned nothing.

Annahibiscuits · 02/03/2017 10:14

If all this positive reinforcement and psychology Hillsborough WORKED then there would be no objections from us, would there

It DOESNT WORK. Just makes the teachers/parents of bullies, feel better about themselves

Userone1 · 02/03/2017 10:25

Confused no I'm saying the school should have very clear, precise, effective behaviour and consequences policies. I'm saying school should take bullying very seriously.

I'm saying consequences should not be knee jerk reactions. IF being excluded from sport is one of the schools consequences, then by all means apply it. IF it's not, then apply the appropriate consequence.

If school do not have clear boundaries, behaviour, consequences then work with school to ensure they do.

mugglebumthesecond · 02/03/2017 10:30

Every child matters-hard message yes but with very young children one we all have to suck up.