Kids, work, everything is my fault.

[Putthatonyourneedles]

Why is everything my fault? Why is it dumped on me. I have dd12 and two lo under 5, work nights full time whilst juggling depression and Dh works full time.

I had postnatal depression with dd12. It has strained our relationship, she has a brilliant bond with Dh (her dad) but as a result social services have been in and out of our lives for a number of years particularly when I've had bad periods of mental health and now this latest social worker has declared that everything is due to me.

In the last year social services have started to blame everything on me. Dd12 was caught shoplifting on cctv on numerous occasions on the way to and from school (banned from two shops now) she denied it even when told that we had evidence of it. The police came into school and spoke to her about it, all was fine with no more reports of shop lifting or finding items that we hadn't bought in the house.

She won't brush her teeth properly (she will even lie and just wet the toothbrush but not actually use it)she wont brush her hair thoroughly or take any pride in her appearance despite me letting her choose her hair bobbles and bits. She won't wash properly, she just stands in the bathroom running the shower whilst she isnt in it and then says that she is done or she just stands there with the water pouring over her but not actually washing herself with bubbles (which she chooses)

She won't bring her laundry down to be washed or if she does it will only be half the wash basket. She has one chore per day ie Wednesday is her laundry day, Friday she has to put her clothes away etc. Not major huge chores. Small responsibilities for herself. One month after nagging her constantly about uniform I stopped nagging her and asked once for her to bring her uniform to be washed on her wash day and I didn't count the shirts into the machine, as instructed by the social worker to "give dd12 a rest from being nagged" in the end she ended up going to school in dirty uniform.

When challenged or "nagged" about anything she automatically defaults to "I don't know" or just grunts and whines.

She started to forge my signature in her homework diary, she will often be late to school or very late home.

My lo will clean their teeth, put their shoes away and help with chores occasionally.

I don't know what to do next or how to sort this out? I'm tired of being blamed for a 12yo who wont wash properly. What am I supposed to? Wash her like a baby?

We have tried positive reinforcement with pocket money and items, tried negative such as taking away her kindle tablet until she completes her chore or co operates with us. Everything goes fine until we give her the tablet back and then the behaviour reverts right back to before.

There is a lot of emphasis on this thread on the 'she must do X,Y,Z' and a lack of concern as to WHY she is behaving in this way.

I was very very similar as a teenager. I was utterly miserable and had no self-esteem. I did not care about going to school in dirty underwear and uniform. Worse, my parents didn't notice or care.

I had a lot going on, but because we were a middle class family and I was an intelligent girl, I passed under the radar to an extent. I confided in one teacher to be told it wasn't too bad - only 6 years to go until I left home. I didn't do homework, cheated in tests etc.

If it is any consolation, my hygiene is impeccable now, but I still suffer with depression and self-esteem issues. If I had had someone notice/care a bit more when younger, maybe the issues would not be so prevelant now.

It is tough OP, but you obviously care, or you would not have written this.

Take some time off, spend some time alone with her (or your husband could do this if she is more likely to talk to him) and talk to her as a person and show an interest in her and her thoughts and feelings. And don't mention the hygiene thing in the beginning.

OK I'm done. I will quit my job which pays 75% of the bills including the rent to keep a roof over our heads, take the younger two out of nursery which I won't be able to afford or get help with so they can trash the house.
I will spend every waking moment following my 12yo around saying "brush your teeth" " have a wash" like a God damn robot or do I ignore it when she smells so bad that 2. I will wait on her hand and foot because heaven forbid she does a single chore a day.

I will reduce the housework so that when ss come they will concerned regarding the state of the house.

You reminded me a lot of my mother and with your latest post you do even more.
I moved out when I was 16.

OP, there is no need to react like that at all. Now YOU are the one sounding like a petulant teenager. Spending a day or two with your DD is not the equivalent of giving up your job.

So instead of taking any of yhis on board you throw your teddies out the cot. Yes OP that will solve everything

Not 1 poster has said give up your job.
What posters have said is you both need to actively parent your child.
You have 3 days off a week and her dad has 2. Are you really saying that out of 5 none working days you are unablw to supervise her brushing her teeth/washing/spending 1:1 time with her?

You have a very unhappy 12 yo child yet your focus is all on you.
I urge you to seek more support from SS as you are not coming across like you care about this poor girl.

Why don't you stop being so dramatic Op and try to take on board the very useful and sensible advice you've been offered?

The OP has already explained that she can't changer her shift yet posters suggest she does, OP is obviously struggling and she's getting a bashing on here. It's hard to see the helpful posts amongst the derogatory ones.

Social services aren't usually 'in and out of people's lives for years' due to PND/depression alone - particularly when another supportive parent is present. What have their concerns been over the years?

Op why are you reacting like this to simple, helpful suggestions? You asked for advice and now you are kicking off because you have it??

I don't know what area you live in but many have parenting courses that you, dh and dd could attend together (with creche and once night a week) to reconnect and learn.

Could you maybe think about how your mother may have described you at this age? How that was emotionally abusive? Then think how you describe/relate to your own child.

OP, I have to ask...what did you want from this thread?

My niece was like this about washing at 12, by the time she was at the end of year 8 she had got over it and was spending hours and hours in the shower "making sure her hair was washed properly

Apart from the shoplifting(and even that is not way out there for some kids) , I think she sounds normal to me. You need to pick your battles. For me washing and doing her own laundry would not be on my list of battles. This is because she does not care yet whether her clothes are clean or dirty (DS is like this) and you can't actually win the battle.. Once she starts caring, you can use the "if you don't bring your washing down, your clothes will not be clean" line

I do think though, it sounds like your relationship with her might be a bit complicated (only because you mentioned the pnd which suggests to me that you think it has had a long term effect). Given this, I would spend more time (if you can) working on being with her and enjoying time with her if you can and let as much as possible slide. Obviously not shoplifting but hygiene can wait a while. If you feel more positive towards her, you will be able to pick your battles more carefully as fewer things will be so annoying to you

HShes reacting because she has depression and all she can see is criticism! A helpful suggestion to change her work pattern is not helpful if as she has already said its not possible to do

Stoorie there are many supportive posts are you reading a different thread

Can you honestly say the OP has given any hint that she wants to support her child? To care for her? To try and find out why this little girl is neglecting herself?
Because I cannot see one post from the OP which shows that. Its all about the adults and the siblings and how hard this is for them.

I don't think I've seen anyone suggest OP changes her hours since she's said it's not possible.

You're having a bit of a paddy, OP. Yeah in an ideal world a 12 year old would wash themselves and do some chores. This isn't an ideal world, there are other issues.

Take the chip off your shoulder about it all being blamed on you and just help your daughter.

What about my suggestion of a cleaner? Or asking a friend/family member to help? Or doing chores WITH daughter so you're killing two birds with one stone? You need to think a bit more creatively instead of "I've tried this, doesn't work, just going to complain now". Put your pride away and help her.

Helping her when she needs it is not the same as waiting on her hand and foot. Even if you can't see it, we are trying to help you.
You can delegate the task of bringing her laundry down but you can't delegate the responsibility of keeping her clothes clean so if she won't do it, you or your dh will have to.
I'm sorry you're going through such a hard time. Can your dh help out more or is there anywhere else you can get support?

Hi op i have a 12 nearly 13 year old and they need a lot of prompting to wash and do things but the minute i flip my shit over it they become oppositional and refuse to budge, you should be going and getting her clothes and washing them I'm afraid, she's hardly 18 , so id pick your battles on that one, id be mortified to send my child to school in dirty clothes it just comes across that you don't care even if you do.
Shoplifting is a cry out for attention , even your post you basically say you have no time for her, try staying calm and spending some time with her and asking her to do things nicely and you will get better results. I understand stress as i work 12 hour nightshifts in a stressful job with 3 kids , my youngest are both under 5 but the minute i start flipping out at everyone is the minute i lose control. Good luck.

There's such a lot going on here, OP, and I feel for you.

I do think there are certain warning signs here that your DD may be experiencing MH issues herself. Now, none of us can diagnose her, nor should be attempt to, however I there are some signs there that I would want to get checked out. Of course at the age she is, the hormones are flying around, and it's a horrible time, so much of it will be down to that. But I think her MH needs checking out.

You clearly had a horrible childhood, can I tentatively ask if you have been offered any kind of therapy at all? The reason I ask as in some of your posts the teenage you is crying out, and I suspect this may be impacting on your relationship with your DD. This is no way a criticism or judgement, it's simply what I noticed from your latter posts, and I think that teenager needs to be heard, but by someone who can support you in the right way.

I think your DD also needs someone completely independent to talk to.

I don't believe you need to change your job, or not work, I don't think that will solve the problem.

Your DH also seems somewhat removed from all this. What is his relationship like with DD? (Apologies if you have said this and I have missed it). Could he spend some one to one time with her? It all seems to be falling on your shoulders.

Take care OP.

One thing I am surprised by on this thread is everyone saying that at 12, the OP's dd may be depressed, is self-neglecting and so on. On other threads many people have reported that their children avoid washing, don't wash their hair properly (including one with nits on a thread yesterday)- mine have been soap dodgers although we have reached a truce of once every two days washing.

OP I think you have been harshly treated here, you are working f/t and it's hard juggling that and the children. You have rightly pushed your 12 year old to do chores and bring her washing down, and are now being penalized for it because she isn't very motivated/good at doing that stuff.

I would accept that a) a lot of children don't like washing and would smell, 9-12 seems to be a peak age for this where they can't adjust to being smelly hormonal pre-teens and just hope it'll all go away b) you are now catching the attention of SS so may need to put your foot down over this whether or not your original strategy of leaving her to self-care was right (and plenty would have recommended that natural consequences approach).

I would start washing all her clothes, even if you have to go in her room to retrieve them, they are probably smelly/not getting clean enough through not being washed/dried properly, so I would definitely get on top of this so that one source of smell is reduced.

Then tackle the shower issue, by saying you can tell when she has/hasn't showered, and that you require at least every two days a shower/hair wash, and all other things (so phone, internet) are contingent on this. You are sorry to have to be so strict, but SS are coming around and it is important that your dd is clean and smells good. Buy her the products, put them in her room and insist that they are used (by the negative reinforcement of no phone or whatever).

Then you can work on the positive reinforcement, spending time together as well.

I think you have been harshly treated on this thread, there have been tonnes of threads about teens who don't wash, and also threads about shoplifting (and mumsnetters confessing their own crimes), plus plenty of threads moaning about teens in which of course the parents moan about how it affects them, as that's their life!

You have had some good advice on this thread if you can see past some of the more critical posts (because criticizing depressed people is known to be a really good intervention strategy...), good luck with it all, I think you can turn this around.

I'd also say that although not washing is very normal, your dd could be depressed, I have found a very negative mind-set, lots of paddies and not washing to be entirely normal in my own 13 year old, interspersed with fun/enjoying life and so on, if you feel it is tipping too far in the wrong direction, perhaps think about seeking help for her.

But the things I ask of her aren't above her age. She isn't involved in caring for anyone. Literally her chores (one per day) are clean her room, bring laundry down, put her clothes away. She doesn't do anything else other than pass me the recycling if she is in the kitchen.

OP I agree with you on that one. You are not asking her to do anything that a 12yo should do.
My two dcs are a similar age and they have been doing that and a lot more for a very long time p. It doesn't mean that they are carers or thatbthey are asked to do things 'beyong their age'

I do think you need to approach things in a different way. I found this book quite useful in its approach. The best advice there for me is about how to approach pocket money and how to make it an incentive for the child.

www.amazon.co.uk/Divas-Door-Slammers-Behaved-Teenager/dp/0091924111/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=&tag=mumsnetforum-21

Maybe have a read and see if you could use that technique for teeth brushing, clothes wearing, washing in basket situation.

Oh and start with ONE issue and then concentrate on the next and so on.
I would choose the one that will make the most difference re the school and the SS (so the way she is dressed/hair??)

I would also look at the way you are sharing the load re housework, caring for the dcs etc... and look at the time when it's better to 'nag' her to do something.
I would ask her to brush her teeth in the evening and forget about the morning atm for example.
I would be behind her to check if the dirty uniform is in the wash in the evening too.
But that will only work if your DH is on board too.

It sounds really tough OP. I think you have to pick your battles though. My DS (12) is pretty much like this with washing - yes, he does the "turning the shower on and pretending he's washed thing" too. Not sure why as it would just be quicker to have the damn shower! I would do her clothes for her and make sure they are clean and ask her to wash herself. If she doesn't, she doesn't. Hopefully this is just a phase and she will change her mind eventually. Could you use her table as leverage?

Not 1 poster has said give up your job.

Yes they have, Astoria7974 told her to:
If I were you I'd outsource the housework, replace the job with unsociable work hours with a 9-5, and focus on rebuilding trust between yourself and your dd. There is clearly something wrong - but she doesn't trust you enough to tell you. Not surprising when you don't even wash her clothes!
That last point isn't even true - she does wash her clothes.
But it's much easier and more satisfying (apparently) to blame the OP.

I don't want OP to feel bashed... but

It doesn't sound like DD gets very much mother alone time

I am sure to some extent there could be sibling jealousy, they now get all your time and attention.

I have a teen DD and believe me, I hear myself sometimes trot out 100 negatives and no positives.

Something has to change though doesn't it? And I am not sure it can be 12yo DD's responsibility to make it all better again

I'm sorry

Last thing, unfortunately, the assumption is that the whole responsibility for having children arriving at school dressed and cleaned or having a tidy house is on the woman's shoulder.
Hence the comment from the SW.

However, please remember that if someone is responsible, it's BOTH YOU AND YOUR DH.
I do hope that your DH is totally in board with That!

I think you're forgetting that 12 is still a child. Yes, they might well be full capable of doing laundry, showering daily and brushing their teeth, but they still need support, encouragement and a gentle push in the right direction most days. Parenting doesn't stop once they hit their teens - in fact, I think they need you MORE in some ways at that age, although probably more emotional than physical support.

If she's not brushing her teeth, you stand over her while she does it on a two minute timer. If she's not showering, you keep making her go back in until it's done properly. That's basic parenting. Yes, it's tough and frustrating, but you can't just give up because you expect her to manage alone.

Nobody suggested you quit your job and follow her around 24/7, but they're suggesting that you need to focus some of your time on her. Ironing can wait - your 12 year old needs you NOW.

It's hard working nights and having mental health problems. However it does sound like you are at the end of your tether with dd, again understandable but the way you are coming across on this thread is showing you find her an annoyance.
Could you take her away for a weekend? Just the 2 of you to something she would enjoy.
I think unintentially you are pushing her away when it sounds like she has mental health issues herself. Maybe you are too alike and that is what is affecting your relationship?
I don't know if there is any help you can access such as home start for older dcs?
I hope you and your family can work through this, and wish you all the best.