..in thinking this isn't a fair method of discipline?

[yorkshirelass79]

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I don't approve of this either, but sadly it is quite common. I believe the thinking behind it is that the other children will be angry with the naughty ones who caused the punishment, thus putting more pressure on them to behave. A bit like prison officers turning a blind eye to the "daddy" bullying other inmates, in exchange for a degree of control over whom he terrorizes and when.

doesn't sound fair, but sometimes as a teacher it's difficult if the children messing about aren't easily identifiable and there's a general mess about going on. Sometimes keeping the whole class in or whatever can work by peer pressure - your DD is cross so next time the ones who are usually good and were cross might put pressure on the others to behave better.

I wouldn't advocate this as a regular method of discipline though, as it isn't fair fundamentally.

Think the teacher should have givin a warning first "if you don't be good I will take a house point from EVERYBODY" - after taking them from just the noisy children (if they haven't calmed down)

My dd's school does this and they all lost a point once in her class because of bad behaviour at lunch. Has only happened once in three years and she does love getting points for either academic work/sports/being kind/helpful etc. If it happened a lot - taking points away it wouldn't be very fair but, generally, the children seem quite happy with it. My younger dd at the same school now too.

How very Hogwarts.

Seems strange, a note to the Head might be in order? Personally, at the age of 9 I'd leave the school to their own forms of discipline though.

I think the teacher should do her own job rather than getting the other children to do it for her.

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My dd's school has a similar system, but I don't think the teacher has taken points off the whole group if only a few are messing about. It does seem unfair your dd should lose a house poiunt even though she wasn't misbehaving.

That's what I meant yorkshirelass. It's a form of institutionalised bullying. It's rotten practice IMO.

I don't agree with whole class punishments and they are strongly disapproved of under OFSTED and LEAs, etc.

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It is lazy, as well.

Bad teaching, imo. But if a one off thing probably a salutory lesson in life not being very fair sometimes.

Also i think these sorts of systems are often very bad for naturally well behaved children, especially if they have a bit of a perfectionistic streak or a fear of losing adult approval. They get endless streams of stars for years on end and may feel that the prosepct of losing one would constitute the crumbling of their world. If your dd is a bit like this it'll be good for her to lose a few house points now and then and realise it's not the end of the world, imo. Every child should have the opportunity to (safely) dare to be naughty and screw the consequences sometimes imo but some children get very stuck in the good role.

Sounds like our school - we have houses in juniors and whole-class punishments. But never removal of points from an entire house. Sounds a bit drastic. IME the whole class punishments only tend to be used by the stricter teachers and generally only in the first half-term until boundaries are established.

I think they say it's something to do with "collectve responibility". It hink DS1's class has been collectively punished for something before.

I'm not quite sure how it equates to permitting a bullying prison inmate... It's kind of the opposite in my mind - the inmates pulling together against the misbehaver.

IMO only a valid punishemtn if there's been lots of warnings and it's a last resort BTW.

When i was at school eons ago , i admit, the bad children were always bad,,, as a good (hmm) child i would never confront another childs' bad behaviour anyway, they were far too scary!

If Ofsted don't like it, how comes schools do it?

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In my child's school, a certain type of points are awarded for good work or good behaviour. For poor work or poor behaviour these points are not removed but another type of points are given. The sum totals of these 2 things are recorded on the child's school report as well as house lists.

I think it's crap but it is reasonably common

Soupy, I meant to point out a similarity in the sense of the teacher deliberately promoting discord among the children in order to use them as a disciplinary tool against one another. Prison officers exploit emnity among the inmates by turning it to their own ends.

Although having read it through it's not a great analogy at all, is it

I run a drama class, and without this method teaching would be impossible. They have to learn not to talk backstage, and it's a Herculean feat to get them to stop.

I tell them at the beginning of a rehearsal that if I hear anyone talking backstage the reharsal will be stopped and I will come back and find out why. If no good reason is given to me, everyone will be pulled out onto the stage and made to sit with their eyes shut in silence for five minutes.

I tell them that I know it is unfair on the quiet ones, but that the talkers give me no choice.

Any children who are worried about it either talk to me about it, or their parents do. Invariably the ones who worry are the ones who behave well, and I'm always able to reassure them and praise their behaviour.

I've found this method very successful when combined with a warning and praise for good behaviour. the children I teach are very happy. I know this, as if they weren't they'd leave! (I have a lot of competitors).

I rarely have to use this method with classes under 12 anyway.

"I tell them that I know it is unfair on the quiet ones, but that the talkers give me no choice."

I don't think I want my children to be "taught" that sort of value system, thanks.

Not to mention the fact that it's an outright whopper. Of course you have other choices. It's just lazy and unfair, and you know it, and so do the children.