To ask you honestly if you think my DD is badly behaved?

[tickettostruggling]

DD is 3, and I used to think a lot of her behaviour was normal for this age. I still think it's normal but I wonder if DD is maybe at an extreme end and I wonder if its my parenting I definitely don't want soft soaping here so please give it to me straight.

• tantrums, I know, normal for this age group but they last such an unbelievably long time and are so forceful. She honestly screams as if she is being murdered. Anything and nothing sets them off, things like buttoning her cardigan the wrong way, putting a blue hair bow in and she wanted purple.

• rudeness (this upsets me most) she is not a polite little girl. We were at a party the other day and she was given a "prize." She responded with a foot stamp and a loud "noooooooo NOOOOOOOOOOO I want THAT one." She couldn't have "that" one so she just kept screaming. It was a gift She has done this before if anyone gives her anything, so embarrassing.

• won't walk anywhere for long periods, she has to be carried and only by me, not DH or one of my friends. I've stood for an hour telling her to walk but she doesn't give up. It's definitely about being close to me not tiredness as alternatives like DH carrying her, standing on the buggy board, don't work.

• sleep, she's always been a bad sleeper and it's not improving, she wakes several times in the night and again it is me she wants.

It sounds awful but it's putting a strain on our relationship as DH thinks (he doesn't say so explicitly but it's obvious) I have "caused" this and I think maybe I have as I was very into the whole gentle parenting thing when she was born. We were at the zoo the other day and DH suddenly walked away with other DC when she was whining and crying. I asked him what was wrong and he said "I wanted to smack her, and I felt awful for wanting to smack her, but I did." I knew what he meant. Obviously I don't want to smack her but I do feel like she's making us all and more importantly herself miserable right now.

Any advice?

Yes she does sounds badly behaved. It sounds like you are far too soft with her. But at least you recognise this and ask for advice. To change that kind of behaviour you are going to have to get tough im afraid.

For a start it is not normal for 3 years olds to tantrum like that. If she starts kicking off literally just walk off and leave her. totally ignore her. Tell her once i'll speak to you when you've finished and then thats it. Even if she scream and stamps for 30 minutes, she will eventually stop. She will soon get the message. The more you try and coax her or talk to her the longer and worse the tantrums will be. And ignore the disapproving stares from judgy people if she does it when out, its not their business and your daughter isn't coming to any harm, you;re just letting her have her tantrum and when shes done just say cheerfully, oh thats better and carry on as if nothing has happened

With being given a gift, if she behaves like that to the person giving it, she doesnt get the gift or anything for that matter. Its not hard to teach a 3 year old to say thankyou. if she doesnt say thankyou when shes given something, she doesnt get it. (Obviously you can prompt her but if she says she dosent want it or whines for something different, she gets nothing)

Walking anywhere - Just dont carry her. If she tries to hang off you just pull her off, let her sit on the path screaming for a bit even but tell her shes not being carried and thats that. (obs try and start this when you dont have to actually be anywhere at a certain time!) Try and start the walk as a bit of a game, try to find as many blue things or seomthing or if you think she is genuinely tired if its a long walk, try something like i'll carry to that red fence then you have to walk again

Sleep is a bit more tricky but just put her back to bed. First time tell her time to go back to bed, then just put her back everytime she gets up without talking about it or cuddling her or anything. Just pick up, back in bed. You might have to do it 50 times before she gets fed up, she might even be back up before youve reached the door but just persevere, eventually it will work.

And dont forget if she does good things with no fuss or tantrums or whinging reward her with a cuddle and praise.

Good luck

Also, despite what a lot have said, some children are very difficult the most difficult I know is an 8 to who has been consequenced/marble jarred since toddlerhood. It has not worked for him and I have said for years he seems to resent it and it definitely hasn't done him any favours.

P.S. do people really not ever carry 3yos? I am happy to carry once it suits me, don't see a problem with this!

My DS went through a stage of being a bit like this and you have to be really firm and carry through. He only had to be taken home/ miss out/ consequence carried out a few times before he got the message and now I just have to warn him and he gets it.

Obviously he still sometimes has tantrums but he is much better than he was,

Good luck OP - this parenting thing sure can be tough

Couldn't read the full thread but this earlier statement stood out to me:

*Don't have time to read through, but I know two people whose children are similar (hideously behaved at home, clingy to mom/alternating with being vile to her, poor sleepers), but reasonably well behaved at school. Both are on the spectrum.

You might want to have her assessed*

My DS also has ASD and SPD. He is highly anxious. At this age he would have tantrums meltdowns over things I couldn't control - different types of floors (they scared him), ceilings, lights, his clothes he'd chosen, foods, parties etc. I'd always remove him but it didn't change the behaviour because it was born out of anxiety. He never wanted to be separated from me, again because of fear.

He was a terrible sleeper - up and down all night and barely napped in the day as a baby.

He was diagnosed with ASD aged 6 and given melatonin to help him sleep. Getting more sleep helped him, although we've had to put a lot of strategies in place as well. He copes really well now (he is 10).

One thing I noticed is you seemed slightly dismissive of a spectrum condition as your DDs speech is good. So is my DS - in fact at this age his was advanced. But that is usual for high functioning spectrum conditions. What is also common in spectrum conditions is rudeness, having met downs over uncontrollable things (you mentioned that) and high anxiety (her not wanting to leave you could be due to that).

XP and I split up partially because of differences in parenting. There were other issues too, but I recognised early on there was possible ASD whilst XP labelled it bad behaviour and just wanted to punish harshly (shutting an anxious 2 year old in his room all night with no lights because they were 'stimulating' so that he wouldn't come in and bother us. And of course it didn't work, it just left DS terrified of being alone in a dark room until he was about 8).

Try setting some consistent boundaries as suggested here and giving them a reasonable length of time to take effect (I find 2-4 weeks), but after that consider taking her to the GP to ask for a developmental assessment.

"I never felt I could confide in my parents, I felt they would laugh at me or wouldn't be interested or when I did try to tell them something they would sort of turn it back round on me ("well why did you do that? Honestly!") sort of thing."

"I was really unkindly treated by a lot of adults and I never felt I could talk to them because it would just be flipped around onto me."

"my mum in particular had a temper and she would sometimes flip at me when I'd done nothing"

You know what, OP? I think the root of the problem is that you don't have a good parenting model from your own parents. They sound toxic, tbh. It sounds as if there were elements of your childhood that were very unhappy. Naturally you don't want that for your own children. You know what not to do. But maybe you don't feel confident in what to do?

I do think you might benefit from a parenting course, not because you're a bad parent, but because it might give some some confidence in your parenting choices.

And as a side note I wonder if you might be interested in the Stately Homes thread and/or the book "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward.

Sorry I haven't RTFT as it's long!

DS2 could be a big of a nightmare, especially voting after DS1 what never had a tantrum!

When he was around 3 he could be reminded that he could tell me what was wrong rather than screaming and shouting.

Sounds very simplistic but I used to tell him to use his words and he'd look like he had a light bulb moment and would calm down and talk to me.

It didn't work all the time but managed a few of his meltdowns.

Op, asd popped into my mind too, but I don't know if I'm over stepping the mark by saying that. A lot of what you're saying rings bells for ds2 who's now being assessed. However, asd ds1 was impeccably behaved, so I know every child is different.
It sounds like a tough time. Don't be too hard on yourself

OP, I know it is really hard, but being firm doesn't mean never having a laugh with your DC or them being able to confide in you.

You seem to have really taken on board the good advice you have been given here, and I agree with PPs that your own relationship with your DPs doesn't sound like it was the best growing up.

Just stay calm, and follow the advice you have been given here. Calm, firm voice, ignore behaviour where possible and immediate consequences when out, like going home or no treat. If you stay firm, things will improve.
Before you go out, get down on DD's level and explain in a calm voice exactly what is expected while you are out, where you are going and what you are doing, AND what will happen if she doesn't follow your expectations. Then stick to it.

Sounds normal. My 3yo daughter was horrendous and only Mummy could do things for her, and DH blamed me for not being strict enough. Shes now a 5yo and beautifully behaved.

I have skimmed a fair bit of the thread, but may have missed things.

My gut reaction is that yes, she does sound badly behaved. You do recognise that though and as others have said, you really will have to get tough to deal with it.

Regarding the prize at the party, I would have been horrified if mine had behaved like that. They would have been taken home with no prize at all, and they knew it.

Regarding the refusal to walk etc., yes, some children are more of a problem there than others, but I used to walk off from mine providing they were in a safe place. If they weren't in a safe place then I grabbed them by the hand or arm and simply propelled them until they were, without picking them up.

I clearly remember once being in a shoe shop with DD1, who was then 5, and DD2, who was 2. DD2 needed her very first shoes as she had recently started to walk (late walker). DD1 had recently had new shoes and did not need any more at that stage. Cue one massive strop by DD1 who raged and informed me that she would not leave that shop without a new pair of shoes. She sat on a chair and said she wasn't moving.

I took DD2 and paid for her shoes, then informed DD1 that I would leave the shop now, with or without her. I left without her. When I opened the door again a couple of minutes later it was one very meek and sheepish DD1 who trotted obediently out to me.

It never happened again.

I like boundaries and fairness. Not "gentle parenting".

I really don't have any desire at all to do a parenting course, but thanks.

I'm pretty sure DD isn't autistic. Doesn't tick any of the possibilities at all.

What a shame that you aren't open to a parenting course. The ones I've been involved in have always been supportive. interesting and confidence-building and I have learned something from everybody. Mostly middle class parents looking for new ideas and techniques, some people struggling with things like PND or divorce, almost everyone with some sort of behaviour that they had run out of ideas to deal with. Lots of sharing anecdotes and ideas. TBH pretty much like a really good MN thread with everyone chipping in their experiences and taking away something new to try at home.

Come on. Middle class parents don't go on parenting courses.

I know people who have done parenting courses. Some had been very about them, but all found them useful as far as I can work out.

Plenty made some good friends there, and also came across others in the same boat as them.

They aren't a criticism of parenting.

I took my, refusing to get dressed 3 yr old ds to nursery once, completely naked apart from a blanket I threw over him. Never have I seen a child get dressed so quickly, with help from the nursery staff. Big grins from us all, over his head. Unsurprisingly we never had a problem after that.

Why wouldn't middle class parents need support with parenting?

What an odd and dismissive comment.

Parenting problems do not necessarily respect class boundaries, and toddlers are toddlers the world over.

DD2 was actually the most challenging of my three. Nothing wrong with her, she just was, though usually only at home. Looking back, there were plenty of times when I could have done with more support and suggestions.

I'm sure they do need support with parenting, but I don't wish to go to a parenting class. Thank you :)

Do what, I almost did that with DD1 when she was not dressed for school by 8.30 and we needed to leave.

I started throwing her uniform into a carrier bag, saying that she could finish getting dressed at school. I have never seen a child get dressed so fast. She could see I meant it.

Lots of people say,
"Parenting is the hardest job in the world"

Its also incredibly important to raise children to the best of your ability.
Yet people look down on parenting courses... Why?

You happily gomon courses tomlearn to drive?
Courses tomkearn first aid?
Courses to learn to paint pottery or other craft things?

Yet a course tonteac yoiu how to do the most I important and hardest job is unnecessary because everyone just knows how to be a parent....

Nobody can force you to do a class if you don't want to, but don't diss them.

You do need to grow a backbone with your DD though or her behaviour will alienate her from both other children and quite probably their parents.

She will cope much better later in life with good boundaries now, and some sharp reminders of them from time to time.

I'm not "dissing" them but saying they are not for me. Interesting that is seen as "dissing" yet it's okay to call a three year old a brat!

"Come on. Middle class parents don't go on parenting courses."

Oh, it turns out you're just a snob.
Wish I hadn't bothered posting.

Oh, it turns out you're just a snob.
Wish I hadn't bothered posting.

Agree ... carry on

I think I'd probably be classed as MC. I've been on a parenting course; I found it very useful.