Transing a 4 year old

[ShadowChancellor]

On Monday, all the children at my kids school were taught about being transgender because the parent of a reception kid have decided that X is actually Y and are now sending their kid in as the opposite sex and have changed their name.

According to my kid they were shown a video that was all about how if you were a boy and liked girl things and girl clothes you were a girl and it was all very positive.

No parents were told before this happened. We only found out when the kids came out of school on Monday and told us.

AIBU to a) think that transing a kid at 4 years old is more to do with the parents not liking the fact that their kid prefers girls toys to boys toys and b) that the other parents should've been told before they showed our kids this film and promoted it all in school.

Its caused a lot of confusion with the younger kids who think you can change whether you are a boy or girl just by wishing it and didn't mention at all all of the problems that it can cause.

I agree. Giving childen the chance to fully develop in to adults is simply leaving the door open for a decision to be made with maturity and full knowledge of the facts.

I agree Fish re the sanitisation and brushing over of what's actually involved in these procedures. I read something where it said 'if the patient had blockers then female hormones, it might not be possible to use the tissue of the penis to create a vagina, in this case it will be taken from elsewhere' which actually means 'because you weren't allowed to go through puberty, your body is immature and your penis is still the size of a child's, so we'll start using bits of your bowel, with all the extra risks that entails'

I may be wrong but I really feel this issue, of child transitioners, is the biggest part of the whole transgender 'disaster'.

If you are transitioning, you must b e moving from one thing to the other, but now, we are in danger of losing the power and ability to even define what one thing is!

I hope this madness will end. I have no idea why it has got so bad.

I would love a campaign centered around the children and their right to be free of this gender stereotyping and to be able to 'shelve' those issues, be 'gender' neutral until they are past puberty and can think more clearly.

Would we allow 8, 9. 10, 11 year olds to join the army, or marry? No of course not, so how can we allow them to make choices so life changing!

Fish we are all here for you.

I must admit, I am frequently thankful that my children are through their adolescent years, when it comes to this issue.

I must admit, I am frequently thankful that my children are through their adolescent years, when it comes to this issue.

I would just recommend informing children before they reach school age that girls can like boys' toys and boys can like girls' toys - or what ever kind of gendered roles they would understand.

Then when, or if, it comes up at school they would least have a question mark over the issue.

I don't really understand how schools can in any way promote the fact that girls can do anything, while at the same time reinforcing the gender stereotypes of the trans-ideology. They conflict and contradict on every level.

If schools are being given guidelines, leaflets etc towards educating about transgenderism I would certainly ask for some citation or evidence to back it up.

MiaowTheCat my dd has autistic tendencies and is 12. She has always favoured trousers, climbing trees etc and never like Barbies.

I've instilled in her a strong sense of pride at being a girl/female. She now quotes it back at me.

Datun "I would just recommend informing children before they reach school age that girls can like boys' toys and boys can like girls' toys - or what ever kind of gendered roles they would understand.

Then when, or if, it comes up at school they would least have a question mark over the issue."

Great advice.

"I don't really understand how schools can in any way promote the fact that girls can do anything, while at the same time reinforcing the gender stereotypes of the trans-ideology. They conflict and contradict on every level." I totally agree, I wish their was a feminist lobby to challenge this shit!

ShadowChancellor as the OP are you still reading and what have the parents done in relation to this at their school.

This whole thread is batshit

Datun thats a good attitude but sadly must be lacking in wider society where even the 'congratulations' cards are gendered and people are worried enough by their preschoolers playing with the 'wrong' toys, otherwise this wouldnt even be an issue

Unfortunately datun, I remember reading that research has shown even the most "GNC raised" children tend to take the influence of schools (both teachers and peers) as more important than what their parents say, once they start there - it's all too easy for good groundwork to become undone as young children are still so mouldable. (Eg See how many children adopt religion that their parents have not taught them)

(Then once they reach high school the teachers lose some influence too and it's all about the peers)

Surpriseme has the best attitude of all.

I agree with surprise me

If you are transitioning, you must b e moving from one thing to the other, but now, we are in danger of losing the power and ability to even define what one thing is!

To add to the confusion, it is demanded that we consider adult male autogynephiles with penises and all as women - but if penis can be female, why then must children be put on puberty blockers and later hormones and have surgery?
If the little bepenised individuals who like girls' toys have always been girls, then what are they transitioning to, exactly?

There are adult transsexuals who had surgery and who don't agree with the "penis is female" or the "children must be transed" propaganda, but there is a surprising amount of people who believe, and demand others to believe, both of those things at the same time, even though they contradict each other.

I suspect it is misogynist men (who want access to women's spaces by identifying in) allying with homophobic parents (who want to trans their gender-non-conforming and probably homosexual children). Misogynists and homophobes have a tradition of working together, after all, so that is probably why they tolerate the contradictions.

Too many pages to read. But no I don't want my child to be told anything about transexuality. That's my job!

Homophobic? Maybe sometimes. But the only parents I know who are currently going through this are a decent, accepting, far from homophobic couple, very much led by their child into a reluctant agreement that he is a boy. Their child (late teens) has changed names, is known as male at school, and certainly presents very much as a teenage boy, if an unusually small one - frankly, she was titchy for a girl, before all this started.

(I don't know them well enough to know how far down the medical route they have gone, which would be one hell of a personal and intrusive question.)

NettleTea and beyond

I totally hear what you are saying. I used to not understand why people got their knickers in a twist over girl cards and boy cards, but I totally see it now as laying the foundation of confining, stereotypical roles. For both sexes.

Parents of young children can only do their absolute best. And it does require positive, but regular reinforcement.

I'm not sure what I would do because, as I said, my children are all but grown.

But I think I would try and get the boys interested in cooking. And get my daughters changing plugs as soon as they could wield a screwdriver. And then switch it round. Buy all the gender neutral children's books. One poster said she referred to the animals in her children's books as she not he. It sounded odd even to my ears, which just shows you how ingrained it is.

You can't start suddenly bombarding children with the philosophy and politics underlying gendered roles, all you can do is switch it round as much as possible to dismantle the roles.

If anyone else has any good ideas, put them on here. I'm sure parents would be grateful for suggestions.

"You can't start suddenly bombarding children with the philosophy and politics underlying gendered roles"

...oops...

Im ASD so it seems completely alien to me, as it does to my 2 kids, who are both pretty non conforming. we dont even see it as non conforming, we just do what we do.

There are some quite interesting books on The Mighty Girl website about parenting and gender stereotypes - e.g.
www.amightygirl.com/parenting-beyond-pink-and-blue
www.amightygirl.com/delusions-of-gender

The basic premise is that there is no scientific evidence for any difference between boys and girls brains, in fact the opposite; and the differences we see in behaviour are caused by nurture, hormones, and social conditioning.

Re books for children - I have found quite a lot of books with strong, non-sterotypical female characters for the DDs (see the excellent A Mighty Girl website); but its harder to find books for boys with diverse male characters.

Also I haven't found an equivalent website for boys - I think there is a lack of non-conforming role models for boys in books and on tv. The roles you see seem to still be fairly traditional.

beyond

"You can't start suddenly bombarding children with the philosophy and politics underlying gendered roles"

...oops... grin

What I meant was you can't start talking to a four year old about why women are oppressed and the historical reasons for inequality. Nor why it is politically and structurally advantageous for men to perpetuate the stereotype.

Perhaps I worded it badly, or more likely I am missing something!

Elektra - Rumer Godden's 'Thursday's Children' has a young boy dancer in it (as does Billy Elliott, of course, and Proper Little Nooryeff). Any good?

I was joking datun, though I do have a tendency to go into too much detail when talking to my children

BeyondUnderthinking

Ah, got it. When I was about five I asked my mum, a nurse, where babies came from. She went to great detail, banging on about Fallopian tubes and the whole nine yards. I was a bit - so not under a bush then.

BeyondUnderthinking

Ah, got it. When I was about five I asked my mum, a nurse, where babies came from. She went to great detail, banging on about Fallopian tubes and the whole nine yards. I was a bit - so not under a bush then.

With talking about gender roles - when DS asked questions at about 4 or 5, my stock answer would be, "I'm not sure - what do you think?" and we'd get to some kind of fudged conclusion that would satisfy him. He seems to want better answers now though, at 7.

He was asking this week why all his teachers are women. I wanted to explain it in a way that didn't refer to why women traditionally have done it, but more as why men don't do it. We reached a conclusion along the lines of, "hopefully men will realise that teaching infants isn't just reserved for women" and isn't it positive that the nice TA man in Reception is now training to be an infants' teacher, which will in turn inspire other boys. This wasn't really what I intended, but I wanted to steer away from 'women are perceived as more caring' etc etc because everything I say will be met with a "why?", and that eventually leads us back to the very nub of our oppression.

It's easier talking about other inequalities, that don't impact us directly. Led by DS, we've recently talked a bit about racism, slavery and structural oppression of black people in America, because he caught the Formation video and asked about why police were lining up against the small black child. So he's getting an idea that there is unfairness in the world. Sometimes I do wish we could just stay in a little bubble, though.

Lancelottie - thanks - I am not quite sure what I am looking for tbh!
DS isn't into sports or cars like a lot of his friends, and is a bit nerdy and sensitive.
I just feel like I try and challenge my DDs idea of female role models and encourage a wide range of female representations, especially as often the topics they learn at school in the Nat Curriculum tend to be male-heavy (for example, female scientists are often overlooked).

I guess because men feature so heavily in their historical learning, and male presence often dominates certain toys or genres (superheroes, Lego etc) I haven't really thought too much about what role models DS is observing as I assumed there were plenty to choose from.
So it just occurred to me if there has been an increase in boys preferring stereotyped girl play and from that wanting 'to be a girl' then they obviously aren't getting what they need from the stereotypical 'boys activities' they are given.
So from that I was pondering about whether DS has a wide enough range of male characters/role models in his play. Are they always the 'hero' type, for example?

Sorry for long post - I am not sure if I am expressing myself clearly!