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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the abortion rate will increase after April this year?

930 replies

RocketQueenP · 21/02/2017 17:07

When the new rules on tax credits / universal credit come in ie when no one can claim benefit be it top up or otherwise for any more than 2 children

Sadly I am helping a good friend cope who has just had an early abortion, she did not plan the pregnancy and one of the main reasons is she and her DH are low earners/ They already have 2 at school, and won't be able to afford to have this baby. She is devastated and has admitted they could have squeezed another DC in if it wasn't for the new rules. I think this will happen a lot. :(

In times gone by people would adopt out children that were unplanned that they couldn't afford and I really feel that this is what we are headed back to. Not adoption but, you get my drift

I also think the government fully know this and its one of the reasons they have brought it in. Simple population control Angry

OP posts:
OneWithTheForce · 21/02/2017 18:12

Why would a rise in abortion rates be an issue?

PhoebeGetsIt · 21/02/2017 18:13

I love how sterilisation is thrown about. Id love to be sterilized but cant because Im 25. I have hormonal problems with every contraceptive. DH has been offered to be sterilized but then if we broke up id be back to square one. Hopefully the rules will change now because of those tax credit cuts.

helpmebuystuff · 21/02/2017 18:13

There's help for people fleeing abusive homes

Actually there's bugger all help for them. When councils had to make cuts for them then DV services were the first to go.

Austerity disproportionately affects women and children.

I hate this attitude of "Why should I pay for other people's children?" Ok so why should I pay Teresa May's salary? I didn't vote for her.

I hope I never have to use the welfare state. But it's essential that it's there if I (and anyone else) should need it.

helpmebuystuff · 21/02/2017 18:14

Personally I would rather increase taxes and have a decent welfare state, NHS and state education system. And we are higher rate tax payers.

LoveMyLittleSuperhero · 21/02/2017 18:14

they will still receive the disability element of child tax credits approx £60-£80 a week.
Brilliant, have you ever tried living on this? Or having this as a substitution for a parents wage because the child has to have a parent at home?

B: they will revive tax credits for the third child- its second birth not second child.
That's better than I thought if it's right

Gertrude Flowers I sincerely hope they bring in something for women in your previous circumstance. I don't think these one size fits all policies work.

I've never considered abortion to be tragic It isn't tragic for people who want one, it is tragic for those forced into it.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 21/02/2017 18:14

That's interesting.

It was on the turn 2 us website and it was also on the CAPG site it's now not, it was also on all the proposals from the Gov

however there is an intresting HB notice www.gov.uk/government/publications/hb-bulletin-g22017 Ahhh here we go, unexpectedly blocking claims at least on a temp basis for familes who have 3+ existing children from claiming UC.

Now why would they need to do that if that's not what they were saying very recently.

SeaEagleFeather · 21/02/2017 18:15

The op isn't talking about people who plan large families despite hardship. She's talking about people who accidentally conceive and would have continued with the pregnancy because the finances could be supported

How could you tell the difference? Who would make the decision?

SukeyTakeItOffAgain · 21/02/2017 18:19

This is not due to Tory policy it is due to labours reckless spending.

Interesting. Someone pointed out on a thread not long ago that this favourite Tory habit of blaming austerity on Labour's "reckless spending" completely fails to acknowledge what much of the money* was spent on. And that was reinvesting after the previous 18 years of neglect between 1979 and 1997. For example, teacher training, schools, the NHS, community projects, Sure Start centres...unimportant stuff like that.

I am not and never have been a Labour voter so I say that quite objectively.

*unwanted wars aside, of course

RainbowsAndUnicorn · 21/02/2017 18:20

The welfare state was never set up though to allow people to have children knowing they couldn't afford them like the OPs friend.

It was supposed to be a safety net in the event of hard times like ill health or redundancy.

Supporting two children, because the parents aren't, is still highly generous.

It's a step in the right direction, it's always been unfair that those who self support have to limit their families and live within their means whilst those that don't get more money every time the reproduce, can live where they like, not work etc knowing everyone else is paying for it.

Everyone should be equal, we need tax payers to support the system so penalising them whilst rewarding those that won't support themselves is always going to be a huge issue.

People are free to have as many children as they like, they just need to find that choice. Seems very fair.

ClashCityRocker · 21/02/2017 18:22

I'm torn on this. I know people who work and only receive child benefit who have made a choice not to have any more children due to finances. I have at least one friend who I know of had an abortion for this reason.

As I understand it, it doesn't apply to multiple pregnancies, rape or people who cannot work through disability (although I'm not sure on that last point).

Am I correct in thinking it doesn't apply if you or your partner work more than 16 hours a week? But then again, if you're a single parent whose just had their third child, good luck with that...

I think I could support it if there was a twelve or twenty-four month run on - so you do receive benefit for the first year or two, which would give families fallen on hard times some breathing space.

It's all a bit sledgehammer to crack a nut, and the sort of households I can imagine the tories think they are targeting are actually the ones in most need of extra support.

If what need said is true and it will apply to those born before April if for six months they manage to get off benefits it's just another deterrent for trying to improve your situation, isn't it?

PurpleMinionMummy · 21/02/2017 18:24

It says there are exceptions..."For Child Tax Credit, elements will not be included for a third (or more) child born on or after 6 April 2017 unless an exception applies. Elements will continue to be included for all children born before 6 April 2017."

Does anyone know what the exceptions are??

space83 · 21/02/2017 18:24

I'm sorry your friend is going through this - abortion should be an active choice and shouldn't be based on financial merit.

It's interesting reading the amount of none critical thinking on this thread. I don't often post but issues such as social welfare and child health really do strike a chord.

Looking at each of the arguments that have cropped up is even more interesting and debatable.

Firstly, tax credits were meant to incentivise work - ensuring that low earners would not be overly disenfranchised by returning to work. Therefore an element of post feminism was involved i.e. that women could return and support themselves in the workplace. How they have worked is also a topic of contention: as popularity of welfare reforms came in which looked to aid those into employment became more widespread the 'oh shit' element then happened. They just weren't meant to be that popular. Conversely, wage growth meant that tax credits became more of a necessity for low income families; wages have not kept up with inflation nor living costs.

Ironically, it's not even an educational thing..the pre supposition that low income families have restricted educational standards is pretty piss poor of an idea really. Education is a post code lottery and also one that doesn't necessarily impose itself on one economic class. A family can spend thousands on a private education but end up with a mediocre attainment at the end of it. All the privilege in the world does not negate latent talent in the underdog.

That women have limited idea of contraception - universality of contraception does not exist and as expounded earlier is not a 100% foolproof. Couple into that religion, rape resulting pregnancy, multiple pregnancies and you have an unworkable solution to a minor aspect of welfare cutting.

Long term, pension wise - well that has been massively eroded. It will end up being a work until you drop system. However in a Douglas Adams sort of world we'll end up with accountants and middle management and sfa of anything else.

A population system needs people. We just do. After the first world war an entire generation of working age people were wiped out; the Spanish flu added further to the problem. The second world war imposed not just a startlingly high mortality on a global scale, it also added economically in the rebuilding of infrastructure. Population wise we are now looking at the next two to three generations of people who have a lower life expectancy than their parents - based in part on economic crises and also on nutritional standards deteriorating. Preventative medicine is now a luxury - fresh food is great and fine if you have the time because you're not working two jobs to support a failing family structure but processed ease of food is a lot more time savvy if unhealthy.

It does look like you who have commented with a lack of any social conscience really understand the wider problems which come with social class culling:

Less economic growth = less workers = lower life expectancy
Less innovation = less population = less latent talent pool = less self sufficiency in a post brexit/ nuclear society
Less support in later life = greater state dependence based on less extended families and more welfare need from single person family units

Yes, the abortion rate will probably rise, yanbu in your assumption. I personally feel that the sheer level of vitriol on this thread is akin almost to inciting hatred amongst existing class divisions. It's mind blowing that there is even a liberal party still in existence with the narrow mindset in evidence.

Perhaps, in actuality, we should be looking at the overspend on trident, hs2 and the massively over priced £74k benefit scroungers who sit in the Commons? Of course they're probably laughing over the fact that we are fighting amongst ourselves and not back against a system so disproportionately in favour of nepotism and hierarchy that advantage is something that happens to other people.

OP, I'm sorry that this thread is so hateful and not supportive of social justice.

Nanna50 · 21/02/2017 18:25

NeedsAsockamnesty the government have to do this because they fucked up with Universal Credit, then they tweaked it, chopped it, and started implementing it before systems were ready to cope and can't synchronize it with the Tax Credit payouts therefore families with more than 2 children cant claim UC until 2018 as it won't have caught up until then.

MichaelSheensNextDW · 21/02/2017 18:25

A pp asked why a rise in abortion rates would be an issue.
Is that a genuine question?

NeedsAsockamnesty · 21/02/2017 18:27

Clause 12 in the UC bill.

VestalVirgin · 21/02/2017 18:28

Is the UK so overpopulated that this is deemed necessary?

I thought that in the UK as in most of Europe, birth rates were declining or just close to where the population remains stable.

As others pointed out, the children of today are the taxpayers of tomorrow.

I likely won't have children, as I really don't see why I, who has barely any money at all, should pay all the cost of raising a child (and do the work, too) only for that child to then pay for the retirement, health care and so on and so forth of rich people who possibly didn't even the work of raising children. And not have any money left to provide for me, who'll get shit all from the government, having not been in paid work due to childcare.
It is a shitty deal.

If having children is to be a luxury, fine. But don't come complaining to me about the ageing population and lack of young taxpayers.

OneWithTheForce · 21/02/2017 18:28

Yes a genuine question.

Want2bSupermum · 21/02/2017 18:29

I don't like the rule but I don't see another way to change the status quo that you can have as my DC as you want and the government will support you.

This year has been the year that we have looked at donating to charities that are specifically looking to support families that fall foul of this rule with older children who qualify for benefits after a period of not qualifying.

It is also very true that there needs to be a much better way to tax people fairly. We have crazy levels of childhood poverty in the UK and it is in part because families are 'taxed' very heavily (in terms of taxes paid and subsidies received for large items such as childcare) compared to other taxpayer groups. Every other Western country subsidizes families heavily. There is no proper break from childcare costs with only a small portion of the cost paid before tax.

It also goes without saying that right now the UK has horrible fiscal management. Our tax rates in general are far too low for the services the government are trying to provide. Either our taxes need to go up or our coverage needs to go down until we have paid down our debt levels. Once we pay that down we need to never put ourselves in that position again. Blair has an awful lot to answer for regarding his PFI for hospitals (the cost of those contracts is only showing up now) and general levels of debt that his government ran up without raising taxes to ensure it was paid back.

As for fertility... I have not had one planned pregnancy. I am extremely fertile. MAP after failed condom, mirena, pill+condom have not worked even when the first two methods were used while we abstained during peak fertility. We have three kids but are fortunate that we earn enough to support this size of family.

For those who think benefits should cover this, what do you think families who don't qualify for benefits but can't afford a 3rd do? Why should those on benefits not be affected in the same way as those not on benefits?

NeedsAsockamnesty · 21/02/2017 18:30

This is an old one I was looking at several months ago

To think the abortion rate will increase after April this year?
OneWithTheForce · 21/02/2017 18:30

vestal that is a viewpoint I have never encountered before but a very valid one.

TheRollingCrone · 21/02/2017 18:31

The truth is this country cannot afford for the birth rate not to rise hugely over the next 30 -50 years. Either that or massive immigration to redress the balance of people living much longer, with much higher rate of complex needs.

I suppose we could go down the route of enforced euthanasia . Right then, who's aged parent/ disabled child first? Yours or mine?

Eliza22 · 21/02/2017 18:31

Sadly, I know of people who felt they could not have another child, on a low income. They made the decision to use contraception. Sometimes, pregnancies happen anyway. I also know a young woman who had her first child at 16 and has since had another. She does not work. She has friends in the same boat... single mums, doing the best they can. ALL situations are individual but....she is pregnant again with her new partner, who left when she was 7 months gone. He turns up now and again but then disappears. She's hoping that this third child will help with her application for more suitable local authority housing. I've no doubt, this will not be her last child. She has no intention of being independent and sees it as her right to be "looked after". That's a situation I find ridiculous.

Verbena37 · 21/02/2017 18:32

Whilst they're getting rid of child benefit for more than two children, they are giving all preschoolers 30 hours of free childcare!!
I think compared to the measly amount of CB for a third child, that's fab.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 21/02/2017 18:32

Exemptions are

Multiple births if two children dont already exist
Rape or coercive control if no longer living with the perp and can provide evidence of conviction or suitable third party evidence.

Disabled children (but that is limited to the disability element

ClashCityRocker · 21/02/2017 18:33

I do think it's a bit smoke and mirrors, too.

Morals and ethical issues aside, how much is this going to actually save, and what other shite are they spending it on?

The uk is slowly being turned in to a tax haven for large corporates. That sits uneasily with me whilst we are cutting the support for the most vulnerable.