To be shocked at 7 year olds behaviour?

[Pollyanna12345]

DS just turned 7 last month.
Quite a loud extrovert personality but up to now had no issues with his behaviour aside from not being able to sit still for long so visits to restaurants and so on were always quite tricky.
We are more positive parents than anything else although don't like to label but have always done all we can to suit their needs ( DS2 is 4 and completely different character )
so have left restaurants and places where he can't seem to behave well in many a time
The last few weeks have been hard
School still seems fine and only just had PE and nothing mentioned other than lacks concentration at times and is quite fearless of danger but generally only does things he knows he's capable of so not really a concern but he just doesn't seem to listen to much we say and has an answer for absolutely everything
He argues back like an adult not a child and is extremely logical but not very emotional
A few examples are :
Throwing a massive rock in a farm as he was insistent it was not a rock, just a soft mass of mud so when it exploded it wouldn't break into pieces, it would just fall apart so I didn't need to worry it would smash anything
Spelling out things to his brother like " shut up " phonetically when he gets annoyed and when told off says he shouldn't be told off as his brother can't understand what he's saying
Ran past a door and accidentally shut his dad's finger in it and when explained he should apologise as although accidental he shouldn't have been running through the hallway - that was his dad's fault for coming out of the toilet at that specific moment in time
He also blames anyone and everyone for things that go wrong, so if he falls over someone distracted him for instance and takes no responsibility for his actions
He has a big personality and we've always been careful to embrace it but I wonder now if the respect is actually lacking because of that!
Anyone else with a " spirited " child like mine??

Totally odd comparison. A 7 year old has full control over his behaviour in a restaurant and anywhere else. And if he doesn't it is 100% down to parenting.

Of course all children are different, but at 7 he should know the difference between being good and being naughty. It does not sound like he has any developmental issues - just disiplinary ones.

Kingpin, what are your child development qualifications?

Also, I'm not seeing us as a unit at all, our family is one unit and I haven't addressed the special needs comments as I don't believe that's an issue here but if I did or things change and I do then I will of course look into that further

OP I really think you need to accept that perhaps you haven't given him the right kinds of boundries for behaviour. It isn't too late, he's only 7. But if you carry on allowing that type of behaviour he will be the kid everyone wants to avoid in a couple of years time.

I would imagine you would hate for anyone to think of him that way, as I am sure the rest of the time he is a loving little boy with plenty of great qualities. Unfortunately people won't see those as he gets older. they will just see 'that' kid who is a royal pain in the backside.

Stop with the talking over things and start with the 'this is not acceptable - full stop - no further discussion'. Take the toys away when he mis-behaves. Be consistant. Be his parent, not his best buddy.

Am starting to think this must be a wind up.

Your mistake is in most of your posts.
He always has an answer
Arguing back with me
He is 7 and a child you are his parent, you do not argue with him, you state what is happening and why or what you want him to do and why. End of

OP hasn't allowed the behaviour, she's removed the child from the situation and cut short the activity. She discussed the behaviour and ensured the child has apologised. What else do you think she should be doing?

OutsSelf
in a folder on my shelf - Albeit course done some years ago now. where are yours?
I also have 4 children - all different personalities and abilities - but none have ruined days out for the rest of the family by their bad behaviour. Because we put the effort into our parenting when they were little and didn't take the easy route of letting them do what they wanted all the time.

My children are great company to be around. I would hate for people to look at them and think ' what a horrid child'. I would have failed them as a mother if people thought that.

I didn't ask where, but what? What are your child development qualifications?

SilverBirchWithout "He is not just a spirited 'character'. He seriously lacks the ability to empathise and is displaying characteristics that could be described sociopathic.
He doesn't sound nice or kind."

Seriously? That is completely over the top! Why would you label a 7 year old as "sociopathic"? By the sounds of it he's a bit unruly and lacks respect/boundaries but I don't think there's anything to suggest that he's a future danger to others/society.

OP - There needs to be firm consequences for behaviour that is deemed unacceptable; If he's cheeky he needs to be reprimanded/lose a "privilege" etc and reinforcing positive social interaction is crucial, from this he will learn how to treat people with kindness.

outself And what are yours?
Mine are from a course before I became a nanny some years ago. Plus I have 4 children, so learnt a bit right there.

Its also not rocket science to know that if you set no boundries or discipline when your child is little and acts up, they will act up more and more and more because they get away with it. It's called being 'spoilt'. And that literally means you have spoilt your child. What a rotten thing to do.

It's hard to say no. Its hard to take the time to teach them and have the battles and stand-offs when they are little. Its hard to take away the toy and have them cry and plead. Its gut wrenching sometimes.
But if you don't - this is the result and its only going to get worse.

I had a friend who did this kind of positive parenting - never telling her ds off, allowing discussion instead of just saying 'no, stop it'. He is now 11 and everyone avoids them because the child is so awful. No one invites them out anymore because the child is just such a pain in the backside and always, always ruins it for the other children in some way. And its entirely his parents fault.

Yes, but what is the qualification you have to make unequivocal statements that all children should be able to achieve what your children have by seven? And why do you insist on no difference between knowing what appropriate behaviour is and being able to achieve it? My 6yr old knows what is right but isn't always able to achieve it, for example. There are many famous studies of moral behaviour in young children that test the capacity young children have to enact what they know to be good behaviour in the face of temptation. Not one makes statements like, by seven years old, 100% of children can be understood as fully rationally in control their own behaviour.

I think anyone making blanket statements about what a seven year old can be able to achieve should have a qualification. OP's 7yr old sounds a bit fidgety and impulsive. I'll eat my hat if there is a child development course teaching that such traits were because of lack of parental boundaries.

And while we're on it, being removed from situation, having activities cut short IS setting boundaries. Discussing expectations and following up with apologies etc IS teaching the child empathy and social awareness.

I think you are doing great OP. He sounds like a typical challenging 7 yo boy to me. I believe in parenting without punishment/with compassion (although find it very difficult to always carry it through with 2 of my 3 boys) which definitely doesn't mean not setting boundaries), I have got here because none of the other parenting methods I tried worked with the 2 challenging DSs. They are 10 now, and despite having a very hard time with them and their behavior, they are turning into really great kids. Reactions have changed from tuts, disapproving looks and stares from strangers to a lot of praise and positive feedback.

I agree maybe we've overdone all the talking but gabe agree we've done nothing as there is a consequence to all bad behaviour hence me asking what else you think I should have done?

Well Outself I guess you have all the knowledge and qualifications then and so OP should take your advise and continue doing as she is doing as her 7 year old - by your standards- simply isn't 'able' to behave himself. Same as your 6 year old. It isn't them being bratty, its simply a case of them , what was it? 'not being able to achieve the right behaviour' today.

The other 99% of mumsnetters on here are clearly wrong and we don't know what we're talking about. I guess we are all just 'lucky' to have children who, at the age of 7, know how to generally behave in public. Nothing to do with our commitment as parents whatsoever.

Good luck then.

... and we have been through the whole diagnostic process, NO SNs.

Are you looking for strategies to try manage his behaviour op?
When you have had to leave the restaurant, what exactly is the behaviour? Is he bothered about leaving and waiting in the car?

I am not the one here making unequivocal statements about behaviour, Kingpin, you are. It's extraordinary that someone with child development qualifications would find the idea that young children can be both aware of what is appropriate behaviour and unable to achieve it consistently surprising. Wasn't the whole of the 1990s taken up by people noting the exact amount of time it took children of different ages to break a rule they knew and understood because marshmallows?

I have zero qualifications, I'm just your average well read lay person. But I'm not the one making blanket statements about what is developmentally appropriate for all seven year olds.

And once again, in every instance of poor behaviour, OP has responded with an appropriate sanction - removed child from situation/ ended activity. Exactly how is it that she is failing to set boundaries? And for the record my six year old does great, but he finds certain situations too stimulating /distracting. I support him with appropriate techniques and boundaries. This won't, however, cause his brain to develop the capacity to inhibit his behaviour before he is developmentally ready to do so.

OutsSelf Yes, because studies tempting children with marshmallows is the same as having to leave a restaurant because your 7 year old child is being a little sod. Are you for real?

I'm done arguing with you, you are an idiot.

I find 'pre teaching' to be an effective strategy. Try talking through what will happen if you are going somewhere you think might be problematic. Tell him what behaviour you expect and ask him what would help him achieve your expectations. Only agree to things you think are appropriate. Eg some parents let their kids play on tablets the whole time. Others think this is inappropriate. Decide where you are on this spectrum and stick to it. Let him know what options are available to him if he is bored. Give him lots of attention / praise when he is doing the right thing and make sure he knows the rules and what will happen if he doesn't stick to them.

IME you have to spell this type of stuff out. They don't just know it.

Well, Kingpin, I think those studies are relevant because they show that understanding good behaviour and being able to achieve that standard are not necessarily the same thing. And that there are usually a number of factors in such behaviour, including the development of the frontal lobes, which can inhibit unsociable but personally gratifying behaviour. Call me an idiot, but I think that is very relevant to the current discussion.

I also think it is not appropriate to make unequivocal statements about what is developmentally appropriate for all 7yr old unless you are a child development expert who specialises in this age group.

Personally, I do not think being fidgety or impulsive = being a little sod. I appreciate you have used that language because you are irritated with me, but it is also not an appropriate or fair description of a 7yr old, and there is no evidence anywhere on this thread that OP's 7yr old was doing anything at the restaurant apart from failing to sit still. Also, being fidgety or impulsive in such a situation is unlikely to be caused by poor parental boundaries. In any case, OP has not got poor boundaries - she removes the child who can not behave appropriately, he has his leisure activities cut, and she discusses his behaviour and lets him know what expectations are. Sounds like a perfectly reasonable response to me.

Met a Mum the other week with a "Spirited" 10 year child who hits, kicks, tortures animals and is now excluded from school. She thinks he is bright, gifted etc.

Set those boundaries now OP.

pollyanna I think people are reacting to you saying the school haven't flagged any SEN so he hasn't got any - and from experience people know the brighter the child the more able they are at covering it up - to conform. Until it gets to breaking point...it gets too hard for them to keep it up.
So please be aware of the possibility and keep an eye on him - not getting a diagnosis is not doing them any favours in the long run, just damaging their self esteem. And that is directed at anyone reading this thread - it is something all parents should be aware of.
I'm not saying your DS has SEN.
But as others have pointed out your consequences are having a negative impact on the whole family, and possibly he actually feels like it is a 'reward' - one to one attention - negative attention but attention all the same. You really need to have a think about that, a better way of discipling. And get the squashing his spirit idea out of your head - to function in society we all need boundaries - we all need to conform to certain expectations.
If you are not enforcing boundaries you are not teaching him how to be a functioning adult.

And get the squashing his spirit idea out of your head - to function in society we all need boundaries - we all need to conform to certain expectations.
If you are not enforcing boundaries you are not teaching him how to be a functioning adult.

Agree with this.

If behaviour is unacceptable, you tell them, you tell them what needs doing to redress the balance and you watch over them whilst they do it. (State the boundary, enforce the boundary)

Sometimes a simple apology for hurting/not thinking, sometimes cleaning up a mess, putting the clump of earth back etc.

Removing someone from a situation does nothing towards enforcing the boundaries, it just stops them from having to face up to the fact that there are consequences and encourages them to do what they want whenever since they can run away.

But we do all of those things, just because I didn't write that in my first post doesn't mean it doesn't happen but my mistake for not writing it out well enough as didn't give a clear view maybe
Of course he is expected to apologise when needed and removing his instead of just shouting / taking things away seems more appropriate
What other things do you all think I should be doing? Genuinely interested thanks