To be shocked at 7 year olds behaviour?

[Pollyanna12345]

DS just turned 7 last month.
Quite a loud extrovert personality but up to now had no issues with his behaviour aside from not being able to sit still for long so visits to restaurants and so on were always quite tricky.
We are more positive parents than anything else although don't like to label but have always done all we can to suit their needs ( DS2 is 4 and completely different character )
so have left restaurants and places where he can't seem to behave well in many a time
The last few weeks have been hard
School still seems fine and only just had PE and nothing mentioned other than lacks concentration at times and is quite fearless of danger but generally only does things he knows he's capable of so not really a concern but he just doesn't seem to listen to much we say and has an answer for absolutely everything
He argues back like an adult not a child and is extremely logical but not very emotional
A few examples are :
Throwing a massive rock in a farm as he was insistent it was not a rock, just a soft mass of mud so when it exploded it wouldn't break into pieces, it would just fall apart so I didn't need to worry it would smash anything
Spelling out things to his brother like " shut up " phonetically when he gets annoyed and when told off says he shouldn't be told off as his brother can't understand what he's saying
Ran past a door and accidentally shut his dad's finger in it and when explained he should apologise as although accidental he shouldn't have been running through the hallway - that was his dad's fault for coming out of the toilet at that specific moment in time
He also blames anyone and everyone for things that go wrong, so if he falls over someone distracted him for instance and takes no responsibility for his actions
He has a big personality and we've always been careful to embrace it but I wonder now if the respect is actually lacking because of that!
Anyone else with a " spirited " child like mine??

Try reading It's Not Fair - Parenting the Bright and Challenging Child by Gill Hines. She has some useful insights into why these kids behave the way they do and methods for appropriate discipline techniques that you might find more effective than typical behaviour management.

A couple of positive parenting ideas might be 1) preparing for success-talking through the situation ahead of it/at other times eg. What are three things you you need to do in a restaurant? Xyz. Well done, you really know the rules/good manners etc. Repeat regularly but not during a crunch point, just at regular times, in the car, at bedtime etc. Could be for anything. Key is asking the questions rather than telling.
2) name the emotion/repeat or acknowledge what they've said. Eg. 'You think it's really unfair, you didn't mean to hurt your dad's finger. It was an accident'. Then continue on once you've shown that you understand where he's coming from 'but your dad is hurt, it would be nice if you asked if he's ok and said sorry. That would be kind and make him feel better'.
Sorry it these ideas are obvious to you but I find both of them useful.

yy nettle Children with SN who are good at masking tend to find secondary increasingly difficult - it is really common.
Although I did suspect DD had ADHD way before but it wasn't really affecting her school work. And I didn't want her labelled (which I now know was a mistake). Then it started looking like she was going to start school refusing - which made me go for a diagnosis.
Funnily enough I school refused from about 13 and my relationship with my parents completely broke down -they threw me out at 17. I've just been diagnosed with ADHD as an adult ....(DD and I are very alike - which in some ways made it easier to understand her and work out how to deal with her...in other ways it was harder...having my own impulsiveness etc to deal with). I will also say that I've struggled with depression etc throughout my life - being suicidal after a particularly hard time mainly with my physical health in my mid 20s - and getting a diagnosis (even though I was sure I did have it) at nearly 50 was a relief - instead of feeling like I've under achieved I realise that in the circumstances I've done fantastically well...if only I'd known 40 yrs ago...

Um Pollyanna I wanted to say that although I compared your DS to mine (who has an ASC) I don't especially think your DS has an ASC. I mean he might, many kids might, but when I posted I was just making a point about how it's possible to manage a tough case. Seven year olds are not always empathic (especially not to siblings!) and they can be impulsive, and arguing back and responding badly to blame are not unusual. Your DS is fine in school where he has friends and the rules are clear and no-one will let him spell out rude words or listen to arguments over throwing stones versus mud. Whereas my DS argued back fiercely at teachers too regardless of consequences, etc. Different ballgame really.

You haven't yet tried being firm, ignoring blether and not getting sucked in to arguments. Maybe you need to rethink what you mean by "positive parenting" because positive parenting includes consequences and ignoring and plain simple instructions, as well as rewards and praise and explanations. I'm not a huge fan of the phrase "nip it in the bud" - it implies you can fix a problem quickly once and for all, whereas often it's a matter of repeating over and over and over for a long time though I don't suppose it will be anything like so hard for you to teach your DS to apologise compared to my DS. If you try the full "positive parenting" approach and really get nowhere, then sure, you could think about ASCs or whatever, but I didn't see ASC in your posts.

ocelot41: Good question! I think it is because of the negative reactions from parents - if you said it like it is, you'd be on the receiving end of even more abuse than usual from certain parents, so you temper your language.

1 in 25 people are sociopaths. They all started out as kids. Being a sociopath doesn't make someone a bad person necessarily. I just wanted to point that out.

You've assumed things as the whole family didn't leave the farm, we left the farm and waited in the car until younger son had his pony ride he wanted with his dad
Again with the restaurant, we left and waited in the car until younger son had finished his meal
I wouldn't dream of one of them missing out based on the others behaviour

Do you and your dh take responsibility for your actions? It seems like he's mimicking one of you - he's far too young to invent that kind of behaviour out of nowhere.

I have no idea where all this nonsense is coming from that I favour the eldest or he gets more attention.
I've given a few examples of where I've taken him away from the situation but equally so will DH.
Of course we take reaponsibilty for our actions, we are adults!

Trouble is Pollyanna you think your way of parenting is right - so aren't listening to majority who are telling you it'sineffectual, lazy parenting that fails to instil societal norms. At seven they should (unless they have SEN ) be able to sit through a meal in a restaurant. Lively in this context is a euphemism for naughty. You might think it clever and funny in a seven year old but others are already seeing precocious brat. Does he get invited to other friends houses? Does he have friends at school? If not then you are doing the child a disservice that will have longstanding implications.

we left the farm and waited in the car until younger son had his pony ride he wanted with his dad

That still spoils the day. For everyone.

we left and waited in the car until younger son had finished his meal

Not exactly the lovely family meal, as expected. Again spoilt the event for youngest son and both parents.

But still not addressing the ASD question??

Dragongirl10 and Waitrose. I read the comment this way, private schools are responsible directly to the parents and financially dependent on pupil fees, therefore a child is given more "benefit of the doubt" (for want of a better phrase!) than in a state school. I have only ever worked in private schools and the traditional teachers who joined us often needed time to understand this! Waitrose also crossed it through which does imply it is more a possibility rather than a fact!

Fgs, OP can't do right for doing wrong. Basically people seem to require that you punish your child and make him sit still in the restaurant in such a way that does not disturb anyone else and also in a way that requires literally no attention from you.

I have one wriggler and we work hard to support him sitting through meals but we do leave as soon as possible after the meal. I have 123 magic and I have It's Not Fair but you can't force a child to learn something they are developmentally incapable of, which for my 6 yr old is still, calm behaviour in a crowded restaurant. I don't think it's out of the bounds of normal at all. I think thinking that all children should be developmentally capable of the same things on the same timetable as your own is deluded actually. Mine have been dry at night since they were three, but I:m not crowing at people whose 6/7 yr old struggle that somehow my magic parenting made their brain mature. It's a developmental issue, and the best you can do is scaffold and support and they will get it when they are able to.

What a nasty thread, can't believe there are actual adults calling a seven yr old all manner of names based on three anecdotes of his absolute worst behaviour.

Can we just clarify something here: I think the OP is an indulgent parent. However, she does not deserve to the criticised because she doesn't believe her child has SN. It isn't an insult to anyone whatsoever. And she has 'addressed the ASD question' - she has no concerns on that front.

you can't force a child to learn something they are developmentally incapable of, which for my 6 yr old is still, calm behaviour in a crowded restaurant.

How do you know your child is 'developmentally incapable' of behaving in a restaurant? Serious question.

My child is unable to sit still even when he understands the sanction that will result. In discussion, he expresses regret and understanding, and he will become concerned in a situation that it will be too hard to sit still and not fidget, which will mean he gets in trouble or we will have to leave. I have a squishy ball and some fiddly things to help him in such situations. Also, you know how when you spend loads of time with someone and you really are the expert on their capacities and their intentions etc because they have occupied the best part of your waking life since the moment they were born? That comes into play here too.

Also OP, there is another way to interpret the wild stories about why he hasn't done anything wrong - he wants you to think highly of him and will go to some lengths to convince you that he really isn't unkind or thoughtless. You can build positively on that while still steering his behaviour.

OutsSelf: Fair enough. Don't take him to restaurants then?

Well, Trifle, what about the rest of the family? I ask especially because the OP has been berated for allowing any disruption to days out or family life on account of her DS.

Fwiw, we take him family friendly places at times when you don't really expect to be seated next to adults having intimate dinners etc. And we provide lots of support, develop strategies with him etc. I rather suspect that if I said we couldn't have family meals out because my son struggled to sit still, I'd be slated for being too lazy to try and parent him, neglectful of the rest of the family, and the sole reason that several posters had to endure badly behaved adults in a restaurant the other day. A mother's place is in the wrong, innit.

OutsSelf
Are you implying that children who wet the bed have control over that? And its down to developmental issues and parenting? Oh My God.
Thank goodness yours are not bed wetters with that attitude!

No, I was saying it is as unreasonable to expect children to have the same capacity to behave in social situations as it is to expect them to stop wetting the bed at the same age.

Wetting the bed is a developmental issue, not in the sense that there is something wrong with you if you wet the bed, but in the sense that you will wet the bed until you have developed the hormone in your brain that wakes you up when you need to go. Parenting can't make that happen, it is something that you develop in your own time and no one can force you to.

My point is posters tutting at OP because her child isn't developmentally the same as theirs are as unreasonable as people somehow suggesting that children can be parents out of wetting the bed.

What would you all have liked me to have done then, just not taken him to eat out of a farm in case he did something that wasn't appropriate?