To be shocked at 7 year olds behaviour?

[Pollyanna12345]

DS just turned 7 last month.
Quite a loud extrovert personality but up to now had no issues with his behaviour aside from not being able to sit still for long so visits to restaurants and so on were always quite tricky.
We are more positive parents than anything else although don't like to label but have always done all we can to suit their needs ( DS2 is 4 and completely different character )
so have left restaurants and places where he can't seem to behave well in many a time
The last few weeks have been hard
School still seems fine and only just had PE and nothing mentioned other than lacks concentration at times and is quite fearless of danger but generally only does things he knows he's capable of so not really a concern but he just doesn't seem to listen to much we say and has an answer for absolutely everything
He argues back like an adult not a child and is extremely logical but not very emotional
A few examples are :
Throwing a massive rock in a farm as he was insistent it was not a rock, just a soft mass of mud so when it exploded it wouldn't break into pieces, it would just fall apart so I didn't need to worry it would smash anything
Spelling out things to his brother like " shut up " phonetically when he gets annoyed and when told off says he shouldn't be told off as his brother can't understand what he's saying
Ran past a door and accidentally shut his dad's finger in it and when explained he should apologise as although accidental he shouldn't have been running through the hallway - that was his dad's fault for coming out of the toilet at that specific moment in time
He also blames anyone and everyone for things that go wrong, so if he falls over someone distracted him for instance and takes no responsibility for his actions
He has a big personality and we've always been careful to embrace it but I wonder now if the respect is actually lacking because of that!
Anyone else with a " spirited " child like mine??

Its OK little, I am beginning to wonder if ocelotcub may have ADHD. Or if he is just very lively. Things are difficult for us which are just normal for other families with 7 year olds. I am still trying to figure it out myself!

As a nanny I've looked after many a "spirited child" I recently looked after a 7 year old very similar to how your describing. I wouldn't call him spirited I would call him rude and in need of some boundrys and discipline! And a few scocial manners etc.

Don't leave restaurants teach him how to behave in them. If your leaving then he's winning and you are the parents you need to be in control.

I agree, leaving doesn't seem to be solving anything but I don't think it's fair on anyone else to have to listen to me constantly trying to tell a 7 year old who won't cooperate to do as he's told
I went to a park yesterday and saw a boy of about his age go over to 2 boys who were making a house of sticks and try and kick it down, by the third time the mother of the boys really told the other boy off ( mum was sitting chatting to a friend ) and he just said " blah blah blah " I don't want my child to turn into that where he has a complete lack of respect for authority
I am taking what you've all said on board honestly so sorry again if it came across like I was being defensive

I am with you Polly. And all ears for anyone who can give tips on disciplining a very strong willed child! I don't want to raise a monster either.

My oldest DS was not what you would call spirited at that age. He was an easy going kid. Unfortunately the parents that took joy in labelling their kids spirited or free spirits seemed to be the most awful wishy-washy parents and the kids lacked boundaries. I knew mothers who over-indulged the kid with explanation after explanation, reasoning after reasoning. Yes, of course, I don't think there's any need to be a sergeant major in your approach to bringing up kids but sometimes putting a bit of steel in your voice and saying "right, sit down and shut up!" does not do them any harm, especially after trying a more gentle approach to start with. He's drawing you in with his "logic" and discussions and you're completely falling for it. You've handed him too much power. You're in charge.

Btw, my supposedly placid little boy with the sweet nature is confident, assertive and very adventurous (more so than all his peers at school and I'm not exaggerating that) yet sociable with a wide range of friends at age 19. What I'm trying to say is what they're like at 7 is not always an indication of what they'll be like as adults. The two "free spirits" I knew, that I thought indulged, are struggling a bit. They haven't moved on from the class clown/joker role or being considered slightly offbeat (by their parents at least). Neither has gone to university despite being clever kids, well above average. As someone said upthread I don't think having a slight "fear" of you is that bad a thing. I never threatened to take the computer away or any toy or did the naughty step or time-out etc. Or said wait until your dad is home. I think I was lucky in that respect as he was very compliant and followed the rules but then again he knew who was in charge. And no he wasn't scared of me and he still talks to me :)

I agree in that I've over explained things.
I don't think im lazy or wishy washy, I give myself a headache sometimes over thinking everything and trying to understand the kids points of views and so on so I wouldn't say lazy, but maybe not effective for eldest DS.
Maybe he has learnt his way to talk himself out of things with all his reasoning as it's what we do with them so much.

Don't overthink it then Polly. Tell him once - even give an explanation, perhaps even twice - but then expect him to do as he's told, and sharpen up your tone if necessary (that doesn't mean shouting). Keep it short, don't spend time on providing explanation after explanation. It's actually rude that he's questioning/discussing it with you like that as if he's your equal - he's not. He's a child and you're in charge and you know what's best for him; he's too young to know. It's like he's running rings round you and you're letting him. There is a middle ground between what you're doing and what you perceive other parents doing of shouting and taking stuff away and threatening.

I was like that from the start so by the age of 7 he knew what was expected and there was no need for any shouting. I know it's harder with some kids, and probably largely through sheer luck I had it easy with mine because of his nature, but going by what you say about your DS's behaviour at school he knows when to behave. He obviously knows he can get away with it with you and that you will indulge his "intellect" and "logic" so he has more free rein.

Does he not like restaurants? Presumably you all chat? If you can keep the conversation going throughout the whole meal does that help? Could you perhaps take in some travel brochures and plan a holiday, for example? Something to focus on. I know that would have kept my DS going through a whole meal. I agree don't take technology in as it's a short-term fix. There's loads you can discuss surely to keep him seated and engaged?

Or is he attention seeking, thinking he's there to entertain other guests and they all think he's wonderful and fun and cute? Tell him straight he's being a pain the backside to people who have paid money for an experience that doesn't include little boys showing off. He might not realise this. You won't damage him by taking him down a peg or two, even gently. You have said he acts superior at times.

Sorry Op I've only got time to read the first page and last page so I apologise if I'm repeating anything said earlier:

Firstly I think this is a normal stage of devrlopment but it happens to different degrees
Put in consequences but think of something that will really hurt and ensure you do this consistently
Talk emotional language to him i.e. How do you think that felt
Mirror some of his behaviours so he can see how he comes across
Think you might have to be embarrassed once to get your point across
Praise praise away when he is being good.

If not adoption might be a good idea

My ds18 is like this, always has been (despite my best efforts), he was kicked out of school at 14 and went to a 'special' school - where they do bugger all 3 days a week! and is currently unemployed as he has lost many jobs and opportunities through no fault of his own! He just has never, and will never accept any responsibility for anything he does.

Good luck OP, I wish I knew what I did wrong and how I could have stopped it though I suspect I defended him too much when he was small.

It's not just confidence that makes for a socially successful adult. Respect for others, thoughtfulness, and self awareness are equally important skills. Manners are SO important, being able to function successfully in society is impossible without them. I'm not talking about table manners, offering seats, or opening doors - manners are also the ability to listen to others, and to understand and be able to act on their perspective if that is the correct thing to do.

Theniffler
I agree

Yes, I agree. You can be over-confident and it will come over as arrogant and full of yourself. No one wants to be friends with the kid that acts superior, you do need other traits to fit in and have a range of friends and be socially successful. Some kids don't learn this for themselves though as they mature.

What I'm saying is putting in boundaries, even telling them off once in a while (I'm not advocating shouting) and taking a harder line when necessary doesn't take away a child's confidence. Polly seems worried about squashing his personality by taking a tougher line. It doesn't work like that. By not doing it though I think you've ended up with what you've got, barring there are any SN, which you're poohpoohing. I think you know what to do going by your initial post.

I was worried about changing his personality I suppose
I guess I know he doesn't seem to just conform like others do and whilst in some areas it's good that he's got his own mind and opinions i am starting to see that in other places it can just come across rude and arrogant

I think in many ways you are trying too hard to get it right, over thinking and analysing his behaviour.
Being seen as a reasonable, responsive and understanding parent is what we all wish.
However, we are not always showing our children how the world really is. Sometimes saying, 'please stop that behaviour because it is irritating me' is the correct response. Telling your DS that you find his behaviour in restaurants unacceptable and stressful and it spoils the day for you is a perfectly adequate response.
Let him realise he needs to earn your approval and positive attention, it seems to me that he is over confident to the point that he feels however he behaves you will still adore him because of his 'personality' and 'intelligence'. That feels a heady and dangerous amount of power for a 7 year old.

I know you have stated a number of times that you don't think he has SEN but a lot of what you have said does contractict this.

He does seem to pick and choose when he behaves well
He seems to control it when he wants to
He doesn't seem to just conform like others do
Like another poster has said, this behaviour can be very typical of ASD/ADHD/SPD.

I know you have said a family member is a SENCO and she's probably fantastic at her job but it wouldn't be at all surprising if she hadn't picked up on issues, especially if your DS is intelligent and masks a lot.

If he isn't NT then 'normal' parenting strategies aren't going to work like they are doing with your other DS.

I was worried about changing his personality I suppose

To put it rather bluntly - (I would apologise for that but it sounds rather trite) - if my child behaved in a way that caused me to have to leave restaurants with him, to have to make him apologise for not believing he is ever in the wrong, and came across to others as rude and arrogant, then I am struggling to see why you are worried about changing his personality, some bits need to change.

Agree with Beyond
I've found that explanations and reasoning are not helpful a lot of the time with my 7 yr old DS, sometimes he has to do something because we've said so - for example "you're wearing a coat today" or "it's time for bed" he knows exactly why he has to do these things so I just don't engage with any arguing.

I also think that there is something in the boundary /control point - at 7 adults to be in charge, little kids with too much power and control often feel insecure ime.

The incident with your DH and the door resonated with me a bit because I think my DS might have reacted the same way - my DS would have been mortified that he had hurt his Dad and he hates being wrong so might well have tried to deflect and justify himself. In the past when faced with furious denials that something was not his fault I've said it is, pointed out we all do things wrong from time to time and it's not the end of the world but that this was his fault and he needs to accept that, say sorry and mean it.

Re the behaviour in restaurants- how is he when eating at home? Again make it clear what's expected; sitting down, not shouting or interrupting and make it really clear what you expect of him before you go with consequences if he doesn't- agree the leaving early and sitting in car doesn't seem to be working, it's not fair on the rest of you and it might be it really doesn't bother him.

We have a family meal later today so I will see how it goes if I am firmer and more direct
He does seem to mind when we leave, lots of tears and so on but forgets next time and does it again.
Just being loud, shouty, on and off the seat, that kind of stuff.

your ds sounds a little like mine who has always had the biggest personality in the room

(and various other comments)

I really object to this idea that being badly behaved = big personality and its implied notion that well behaved children only have small personalities.

I would really recommend the 123 magic book (I think another poster mentioned it too). It's brilliant for describing how to talk to kids with clear, concise instructions and expectations about their behaviour, rather than giving overly wordy explanations. It also explains why the former is more effective than the latter.

Another fan of the 123 magic book here!

OK I am going to give it a go for my troublemaker!

Dahlietta Yep - 'biggest personality in the room' or 'most annoying personality in the room'?

It's one thing when they're kids with 'big personalities' and another thing when they grow up to become arrogant adults.