To be shocked at 7 year olds behaviour?

[Pollyanna12345]

DS just turned 7 last month.
Quite a loud extrovert personality but up to now had no issues with his behaviour aside from not being able to sit still for long so visits to restaurants and so on were always quite tricky.
We are more positive parents than anything else although don't like to label but have always done all we can to suit their needs ( DS2 is 4 and completely different character )
so have left restaurants and places where he can't seem to behave well in many a time
The last few weeks have been hard
School still seems fine and only just had PE and nothing mentioned other than lacks concentration at times and is quite fearless of danger but generally only does things he knows he's capable of so not really a concern but he just doesn't seem to listen to much we say and has an answer for absolutely everything
He argues back like an adult not a child and is extremely logical but not very emotional
A few examples are :
Throwing a massive rock in a farm as he was insistent it was not a rock, just a soft mass of mud so when it exploded it wouldn't break into pieces, it would just fall apart so I didn't need to worry it would smash anything
Spelling out things to his brother like " shut up " phonetically when he gets annoyed and when told off says he shouldn't be told off as his brother can't understand what he's saying
Ran past a door and accidentally shut his dad's finger in it and when explained he should apologise as although accidental he shouldn't have been running through the hallway - that was his dad's fault for coming out of the toilet at that specific moment in time
He also blames anyone and everyone for things that go wrong, so if he falls over someone distracted him for instance and takes no responsibility for his actions
He has a big personality and we've always been careful to embrace it but I wonder now if the respect is actually lacking because of that!
Anyone else with a " spirited " child like mine??

I'd be interested to hear the advice of 'like-minded parents'.

I think if other people have told you they wouldn't let their child get away with so much, that's your answer right there.

Tbh I don't understand why his school haven't contacted you about his refusal to take responsibility for his actions. In my school, that attitude would be flagged at a parent/teacher meeting.

I deal with the consequences of half arsed parenting like this op every day, no time or respect for others opinions, completely oblivious to the impact on school friends and teachers. Thanks a bunch xx

my DD has aspergers. Wasnt diagnosed til 15. Wasnt picked up by schools at all. She is pretty 'spirited' But I'll be damned if she will be rude or cheeky in public or to other people. Understanding doesnt mean making excuses

It's quite sad you feel he has 'a bigger personality' than his little brother. How does the little brother feel about that?

If his behaviour is Ok at school but not at home that suggest that school have a firmer approach and he knows the boundaries there.

He also knows the boundaries or lack of them at home and knows exactly what he can get away with.

The opposite of your parenting is not shouty unkind parenting which is what you seem to think.
It is unkind to allow children to have free rein and behave badly and call it 'positive parenting' You are doing your child a disservice, because it will at some point start to impact his life - he will get less invitations to others houses if he is back chatty and argumentative.
He will run into trouble when he hits his teens and starts to get a bit naturally stroppy and unco operative, because he will not have the underlying behavioural self-controls in place to allow him to stop his hormonal changes ruling his behaviour.

When he argues about e.g throwing a rock - don't give him attention by arguing -that is what he wants.
You tell him to put the rock down, he starts to say 'it's not a rock blah blah blah' you say in a quiet very firm voice 'put it down now'. No need to shout. And when he does what he's told you move straight on.

All kids can argue the hind legs of a donkey, but sometimes as adults you just need them to know that when you say something in a particular tone it means 'do it now'. And that is stuff that can hurt them or others.
You have to know that they will do what you say when they hear that voice, otherwise you cannot keep them safe.

He has clearly become very skilled in the art of misdirection. "If I say something completely off the point, it will distract from the fact that I have done something wrong."

So rather than getting caught up in his argument and discussing that ( eg it was his dad's fault for coming out of the toilet) You just say quietly and firmly 'No. Listen. You hurt Daddy because you were running in the hallway.'
And if he argues repeat it firmly and precisely. Show him his distraction attempts are not working by clearly stating what he has done back to him.

"Little brother can't understand" 'No, listen. You are being unkind to little brother and you need to stop.'

Reward positive behaviour with attention and praise. At the moment you are rewarding poor behaviour with attention by getting caught up in his arguments.

If you want him to have a channel for his logical thought, redirect it positively. Play debating games with him, where he has to put a certain case. Or bring up a topic of general interest and ask for his views and get him to think them through and also help him to understand that debating involves listening to others views too and considering them. That might help him be more empathetic.

Thanks for replies, I've started a thread in parenting for like minded parents to help with tips on the backchat and so on so won't reply any further here

Or "I'm going to find some other parents who will tell me what I want to hear"

Very empathetic when it's suits him

Hm, I'm not going to internet diagnose him with sociopathy, but I do think you should try for a professional opinion.
Because being able to switch empathy on and off is what differentiates sociopathy from other conditions.

Spirited=brat

Ah, you have a barrack-room lawyer.

Theose are mostly the kinds of arguments that my DS (who does have Asperger's and was a walking illustration of the gap between "logical" and "reasonable") would make. So I had to learn to deal with them. And so will you.

You need concrete consequences for misbehaviour - not huge, tiny is fine, but firm, fair and easily enforceable. You are making a big mistake by getting into detailed explanations of why we don't do things. "Throwing rocks is dangerous" is quite enough, followed by "we don't throw rocks OR mud" if he argues and then just enforce the consequence - no more talking. If you think your DS really doesn't understand, then talk to him about it at some other time. And "we don't say unkind things to little brother, whether he understands or not". And consequence.

Apologies are trickier. My DS would apologise for accidents but not for anything he'd done on purpose, however much he regrettted it afterwards. But he had to learn. We had to insist on it. And you have to insist as well. Sincerity or genuine contrition are irrelevant at this stage, having to make the apology is part of learning that you should feel bad about it and that it is the other person's feelings that count. (Same as making kids say thank you for presents they don't really want helps kids learn to respect the giver's feelings.)

Blame and refusal to accept responsibility are an immature response. Which is why you will need to exert consequences and to enforce apologies. It's not about squashing his personality, it's about developing his understanding, on small step at a time, and starting with concrete actions (from you) and simple apologies (from him)

Good luck.

Have a look at 123 Magic, by DR Phelen. There's some really sound theory about how to engage with kids, this could help you restore a bit of calm and order

Oh I missed the bit where OP said she wasn't bothering to reply any more. That's five minutes of my life I'll ever get back then !

Her other thread looking for like minded parents was deleted by MNHQ for being a duplicate of this one! She didn't find like minded parents only more telling her that the best way to positive parent was to set boundaries as to what was snd wasn't acceptable behaviour and manners.

I have a child like your son except he's 15. I think he has ADD/ODD or similar issue but he's not diagnosed as he copes fine academically and he has friends who enjoy his impulsive behaviour. In reality, he's one of those kids who's disrupting things at a low level but he's an expert at knowing how to fly below a teacher's radar so doesn't get pulled up for it. He actually told me at age 5 that you don't have to be good at school. There's 30 kids and 2 adults and they only care about behaviour like hurting people and it's fine to chat quietly etc. I tried to reign this idea in but he's right. Teachers consider him to be one of the good kids as he's not physically hurting people or destroying school property.

You've had some good advice - channel his argumentative nature into debating current events, moral dilemmas or whatever.

I'm naturally laid back but rules and routines are what children like ours need. The general golden rules that they teach at school in Reception are probably a good place to start. Having a few rules and enforcing them is not cruel. The naughty step/thinking chair is not instilling fear, it is a chance to calm down and consider what led them to be sent there. A stubborn child may take longer to realise that they need to apologise for hurting someone accidentally but the experience will hopefully lead to them backing down and apologising quicker next time.

Are his friendships healthy? My son was bossy/dominant in his friendships at age 7 and it wasn't until other boys became physically bigger at age 10ish that he calmed down.

He seems to have trouble attributing anything internally. That's fine - too much of that isn't a good thing anyway but too much external attribution leads to a kid that can't take responsibility for their actions - and that includes pride.

Bit unfair of people to suggest ops son is a sociopath. He's a child! They push their luck and sometimes don't understand situations to feel empathy. He's hardly torturing animals etc

I have a 7 year old who argues and back chats. It drives me nuts although occasionally he makes a good point. I've concluded you just have to be really clear about boundaries, give warnings and follow through. I do - "you're arguing back, that's rude, do it again and you can go and sit in your room/no PlayStation" I also raise my voice shout on occasion.

I think arguing/backchat is pretty normal at 7 but I do think as a parent you need to rein it in. I also think a 7 year old should be able to behave themselves in a restaurant.

Jesus Christ, I am aghast at what I am reading, the poor OP has come on here for support...and been told her son could be a sociopath (pray tell what qualifications do you have to be making such a diagnosis? DR Silver???). He sounds like a normal 7yr old, who just needs to learn more about personal responsibility and the hurt we can cause others). Something a number of adults on here have yet to learn despite being many years his senior!!' FFS!!!

He sounds quite annoying. Think it's probably time you stopped with the ever positive parenting and started teaching him empathy, basic manners, respect and boundaries. There are plenty of extroverted, gregarious, spirited children who still behave generally well. I'm afraid your DS doesn't sound like one of them...he's not a toddler anymore, and I think now is the time to stop exusing rude, unkind and downright dangerous behaviour as he is a "big personality"

Just read this out to my husband (who has been diagnosed a sociopath) and asked his opinion on that suggestion. He thinks there are definite tendancies; blaming others, lack of emotion and always having to be right but a huge trait of a sociopath is manipulation and there's not really anything there showing that, yet at least
Sociopaths only practice emotions, not feel them; can say the right words, that they think are right but there's no real emotion there, its not that they don't mean what they say, they just don't totally feel it. They struggle to empathise with anyone. My husband sometimes asks me how he should be feeling. Trouble is, if that is what it is then its' just who he is, how his brain is wired, unfortunately. I have spent 10 years learning how to best work around my husband yet there are still some aspects to him that I find very difficult to accept - in our entire relationship he has never once said "sorry" and there have definitely been occasions where it was warranted

I wasn't going to reply any further but I just wanted to say that I shouldn't have posted in response to another post as it hasn't been helpful to me or anyone really so that was a mistake on my behalf
Also just to point out; there is no favouritism of either of the children, we love both dearly and think about what's best for them constantly and as I've said many times we talk everything through and there is a consequence for bad behaviour
In the instance of the rock throwing as he was told before he did it not to do it and still did it, we ended our day there at that point to return home.
My youngest child just has a different nature and doesn't like being " told off " so even a stern word is enough to stop any back chat, they're just very different.
An extrovert and an introvert almost.
I said before but I'll repeat, no concerns from pre school ( independent, not attached to prep school ) for 2 years and nothing from prep school started 2 years ago now either
Generally very caring and loving and intelligent doing well in all areas of school, just has an answer for everything which is logical ( in his mind, not an adults )
He does have empathy after the event, it's just at the time doesn't seem to take reaponsibilty
I've seen much worse behaviour by his friends, acts of violence and all sorts so I don't think he's a bad child.
I'll look into that book mentioned so thanks for that.

Another one (though this doesn't quite sound like yours) is the explosive child.extra. it's about getting to the bottom of the behaviour and problem solving rather than heavy discipline which is counterproductive with children like this

sounds like a normal 7yr old, who just needs to learn more about personal responsibility and the hurt we can cause others

Oh yes, I agree. He sounds totally normal. But give it time.

I can't even explain how frustrated this thread makes me.

OP: "is my son badly behaved"
Mumsnetters: "yes"
OP: "Oh no he's not. I should have asked a group of people who I know would give me the answer I think is right"