... to dislike my future son-in-law?

[ElinorRigby]

We had a rare visit from him and my daughter today - the first time we've seen him in over a year. They live in London - about 2 hours away. We sometimes see my daughter in Central London, but her partner is normally 'too busy' to come along.

The nearer the wedding comes - it's scheduled for August - the more I struggle with his behaviour. He's nearly 30 - some of the traits which I put down to adolescence being full of himself don't seem to have worn off. My daughter has been going out with him for over 10 years, and he is the only boyfriend she has ever had.

So today he informed me, when I asked him about his job he told me that I didn't know anything about the corporate world.

He mansplained all sorts of things about a university which I attended and he didn't attend.

He began eating as soon as food was put in front of him. (My husband cooked.)

He didn't thank us for the meal.

He didn't ask either of us anything about our own pursuits or opinions but spent the entire time talking about what he'd done and what he thought.

Interestingly they had travelled up to go to the wedding reception of one of my daughter's oldest friends - before the friend and her new husband emigrate. However, at the last minute he decided he was 'too tired' and so my daughter went to the event on her own.

So is my daughter marrying a rude selfish tosser?

Elinor - trust your instincts. Set mum and daughter time aside - a spa weekend perhaps. Don't be critical but ask questions.She might welcome the opportunity to talk. If she is being browbeaten into a submissive life she might need to plug in to your strength and experience normality

OP this must be so hard. I agree with other posters that maintaining a good relationship with your Daughter - if at all possible - could be her lifeline. It is very likely that she is going to need your support should her relationship crumble.

You don't need to be right. But you need to make it easy for her to walk away from him.

I wouldn't tell her what you think. I'd try to show her so that she sees it with her own eyes. Ask lots of questions & gently challenge certain behaviour. Ask how she felt about going to the wedding alone. Ask why she didn't visit her grandparent. Don't criticise, but do ask.

Good Luck. I hope she wakes up.

He obviously comes from a culture or subset thereof where brides bring in dowries and are subservient to men. He must be the boy child who receives all the attention and starts eating first as waiting for the hostess would be giving a woman respect.

I would be worried too.

Good point Buttered Parsnips. Ask. Open the channels of communication.

No your not BU but I would just let it go and be kind to him. Maybe speak to your daughter and ask her if she's happy.

YANBU0

Ooops my 10mo DD pressed post too early.
My DM was a single mum and had just two children. DM, DSis and I are all really close. When I met DH and told them I was going to marry him, DM was very supportive but did gently point out 1 or 2 concerning characteristics that she phrased very diplomatically (which were my main concerns too). DSis after spending time with him also had a few misgivings which she shared but I also know I had her full support. Marriage went ahead and there have been (many) rocky periods all to do with highlighted concerns. The good thing is I know I can talk to my family openly about this and that they support me and should the worst happen, they'd be there and not be saying I told you so. And I got married knowing he isn't perfect (i.e. with my eyes wide open). So OP if I was your DD, I would appreciate a frank loving discussion and knowing that the decision is mine and whatever the outcome, DM is here to listen and support

Don't say something. Someone said something to me. Not my mum but a friend of my mum. She was right about every single thing. About my employment. About my BF. I stayed with him longer than I would have,I pretended it was fine for no reason other than her truths hurt me and I couldn't deal with it being the truth.

Has she a close sibling? Could they maybe say something? But for gods sake don't say it in the role of 'older and wiser'. Although hopefully your daughter isn't as much of a stubborn arsehole in denial as I was then.

I think we can go on and on about the hows and the whys he's the way he is, but you're either going to have to talk to your daughter, or learn to live with it. Why not tell her you don't recognize her because of XYZ reason? She probably won't like it, so don't expect a nice conversation, but I think if that's how you feel you should say it.

At some points children become adults, and develop traits you might not like or recognize. Them being adults doesn't mean you can't say anything. They are guests in your house, ask for the help if she doesn't volunteer, ask for people to wait until the cook is sat, and stick to your guns when the bf parents ask how much you can give for a second home... it's already lucky you can afford to give anything to your 3 children for their first homes!!

Yes, I think there are certainly things I'd aim to do differently the next time.

Asking for a bit of help with veg chopping and table setting, as well as signalling that it's our intention for everyone first - and then we can start.

I find conversational aggression at meals a bit weird, so didn't know how to handle it.

It maybe another time, I'll just keep my responses short. 'I don't agree with you there. 'Perhaps you didn't know or it had slipped your mind. But that's an area, where I already have a lot of knowledge.

My husband will be seeing her in Central London quite soon. So he is going to do the 'Are you happy?' and 'Remember we're always there for you' conversation.

The weird thing about his parents ringing you is not them going quiet at you saying about having three children (which is an odd thing to bring up IMO, you either have the money or you don't) it's the fact of them ringing you in the first place.

You all sound very wealthy and controlling tbh. My in laws have given us gifts of money in the past but I cannot imagine them ringing my parents to discuss what we were going to do with the money or suggest my parents match it. It's a ridiculous conversation to be having about two grown adults. If you're going to give them the money you surely have to trust them to manage it.

Next time maybe just say you can't afford it, and suggest they discuss your daughter and SIL's financial affairs directly with them. Then shut down any further conversation about your finances which is very intrusive tbh.

I married a selfish, arrogant twat that my mum did not like. He never visited my family or tried to integrate with them.

I left him two years ago with my son, the relationship became abusive and my now ex was arrested for an unrelated charge. My mum was there for me every minute, no matter how hard or heartbreaking it was.

She never said 'I told you so' or pointed out that she had never liked him.
I appreciated that, because my first reaction would have to become defensive and probably lash out at her, rather than him.

I guess the moral of the story is I think it's fine to let her know you don't love him, but don't make an issue out of it. She may feel backed into a corner if she feels you are attacking her choices or her partner. It's more important to let her know she always has your support and that you'll always have her back, regardless of whether you think he's a dick or not!

I wouldn't regard us as wealthy. We're quite shabby and buy the marked-down food from supermarkets.

But very elderly relative had made provision for a four figure sum available in his will for each of our three children when they needed it in adult life. My older daughter asked us if we could help when she wanted to put in money to buying the house with the boyfriend. We felt it was desirable for them to be on a relatively equal footing at the start - and were aware that buying had advantages over renting -, so essentially said she could have the money she'd ultimately inherit - now, when she needs it.

The financial discussion with inlaws was because they were putting pressure on her to sign a prenuptial agreement. They hadn't actually told her why or what would be in it. But we found out that their concern was that if the marriage broke up, my daughter would not be able to take money that belonged to the business that the family had set up. (The business is relatively modest concern. We're not talking billions. And such concerns are not uncommon, I think) As one of us has a legal background, my daughter asked us to try and find out what was going on. We were able to explain to them that prenups were not legally binding, so essentially there was no point - and got them to back off.

I truly think you sound utterly ghastly and overly judgemental. He doesn't spend much time with you because both he and your daughter know you don't like him. It's not difficult to imagine how you must make him feel on the rare occasions you do see him. Your other 'concerns' are hardly big red flags in their relationship. Carry on like you are and I 100% guarantee you will lose your daughter.

In answer to the point above. No. I'm a caring, decent person. I have my faults and I'm noot everybody's cup of tea I'm sure, but I have - or perhaps in this case have had and hope to have again - a strong affectionate relationship with all three children.

My marriage is also a very equal one. A bit of arguing from time to time but open and warm. Lots of teamwork. So I'm genuinely baffled about where my older daughter's propensity for people who will boss her about comes from.

Some kind of inward uncertainty that - while we knew it was there - neither her father nor I could quite reach out to or sort out through love and affirmation....?

I had to re-read some of this again, because it sounded so uncannily like my own in laws, and the way they had moulded their children.
They were brought up very comfortably, and undoubtedly were loved and cared for, but they were also very much controlled. And that need to control, has never been relinquished.
My eldest sil was with her ex for ten years, her first boyfriend, and they too got engaged. But MIL did not entirely approve, and as soon as the prospect of marriage was presented, her 'interest' took on a whole new level. He was probably not too dissimilar to your future son in law, a decent chap who simply didn't show her the reverence she felt they deserved. And yes, he too was allegedly the more 'controlling' one. Much to her delight, he bolted one month before the wedding, because he felt they were too interfering. She spent the next ten years alone, and is now with an identikit of her ex. Both sisters have struggled with relationships, the youngest has been in her first relationship for 3 years..and she is 45! And guess what, he's the dominant one too.
From what I can see, they have simply grown up unable to think or feel or fend for themselves. It is as if they have been desensitised by years of over-parenting. They are not and will never be autonomous confident independant adults, because their mother has never backed off. And naturally pulling the purse strings is also all in the name of parental love. It is almost like the narcissists extension of themselves..their kids. Who they are, what they do, where they live, who they choose. Because that reflects on them, regardless of whether it makes their child happy or not, if they feel it reflects poorly in their eyes, then their child has done wrong. I'm really struggling to see beyond these parallels right now, particularly when some of the gripes are so scarily similar. Like tucking into his food before you have signalled you are ready..it was an informal family meal fgs..not the Queen's banquet!
And yes my MIl also frowns upon this, in any setting. But then this is a lady who has a strangely elevated sense of grandiosity, and no partner will ever be quite good enough for her offspring. In the nicest possible way OP, you need to take a step back.

What's curious then, is that my reactions to my younger daughter's first boyfriend, and the various girlfriends that my son has had have been so different.

They have come and gone and my husband and I have enjoyed their company.

From time to time my son and daughter have also asked questions like, 'Do you like X?' and 'What do you think of Y'. And we've talked about the things that we liked about X and Y, and that has been enjoyable. There was one girlfriend of my son's who I very much liked - but where the dynamic between them wasn't great (long, long intense arguments that went on for hours. sometimes in our house). So it did feel as if they weren't making each other happy. But it was sad too, to see my son upset when they split up.

So with the other two I seem to be doing okay. It is of course, entirely possible that I am an Evil Control Freak, but am opting to focus all my Evil Freakery on just one child.

Though I think on the whole at present the Evil Control Freakery is mainly focused on making pleasant conversation with somebody I don't inwardly like, while privately feeling worried.

Of course, I hear somebody saying, 'But they can always tell you don't like them.That's what the problem is. It's you.' So what then? Take an acting course, despite the fact I'm already pretty adept at agreeable small talk. Go off and take a job in Antarctica...?

I find the amount of people who are saying the OP is controlling to be quite disturbing. I've reread the original post and not once has she come across as controlling or overly critical. I can she why she is genuinely worried and has come here for advice. For what it's worth I think you should speak to your daughter but in a very gentle way and not stating that you don't like your future SIL just that you would like to get to know him better. I posted saying I was in a relationship and found out after it ended that everyone had hated him and was very upset by this. I wish people had spoken to me before as I value my friends and family's opinion. I think what I am trying to say is that if you're just going to slag OP off then it's not very constructive, maybe try to come up with advice!

In drawing parallels with my somewhat 'controlling' in laws, I certainly wasn't implying the same for the OP...merely pointing out that some points do border on crossing the line from parental concern to parental control..the discussion on how to manage their adult kids finances..the apparent discord over dining etiquette and table conversation not being quite deferent enough..and as many have pointed out before..to openly voice disapproval of your adult child's partner, will often end in tears. Whether that disapproval is justified or not.

1. My daughter asked us for money
   The options were
   a) Give
   b) Not give.
   We opted for 1 on the basis it would be a sum she'd be entitled to later, and it would be especially useful at this point in her life. The money is hers, and we do not feel we have got any kind of added investment in my daughter's relationships or choices as a result

2. My daughter asked us to help her her after she was being put under pressure to sign a mysterious pre-nuptial agreement by her inlaws to be and she felt unable to discuss the matter with her boyfriend. We gave this help, because we felt that not only was it supporting her, but it was a chance to get to know people who were already an important part of her life - and would become even more important.. This led on to them starting a broader discussion of the finances that were behind their wish for this agreement, and the young couple's financial plans and hopes. I suppose we could have refused to accede to my original daughter's request for help. But I know that this is something a) asked us to give and b) very much appreciated.

My view on dining etiquette will undoubtedly differ from those of some people. I'm not hugely fussed about how people hold forks. I do however really like it if people smile and say thank you after you've cooked a meal. For me it does add to the pleasure of entertaining - and would do a great deal to make me overlook any other bits of behaviour that weren't a bit rough round the edges.

However I'd expect from somebody who does a lot of high-powered business lunching as part of his work, to be quite familiar with ideas of how to fit in, seem like a good guest. Which makes me wonder whether his behaviour changes a lot in relation to the perceived status of the occasion and his hosts. To be honest I feel he was a bit more polite when he was first going out with our daughter. Maybe now that he's planning to marry her, he doesn't feel there's much need for any kind of courtesy.

Anyway I should really stop now. It's more that other people's questions, perceptions are helping me to understand why the things that bother me, bother me. If that makes sense.

I've heard it said that we accept the love we think we deserve. Does she value herself so little that she'll settle for this or is she strong enough to carry it? All you can do is be there for her

"Which makes me wonder whether his behaviour changes a lot in relation to the perceived status of the occasion and his hosts. To be honest I feel he was a bit more polite when he was first going out with our daughter. Maybe now that he's planning to marry her, he doesn't feel there's much need for any kind of courtesy".

That's an important point OP. In some ways it is probably a compliment that he is relaxed enough to relax his etiquette in your company, although I know you might not see it that way!
You do come across as well reasoned and rightly concerned for your daughter and her future happiness. Yet happiness is of course a very much subjective state of being. What makes her happy, might not be to your liking. You might question her willingness to be with someone more dominant than she, but we all know how complex and unique relationships can be. Whatever facets of personality we might have as an individual, there is always an element of compromise or adjustment when two people live together. And ten years is a long time, enough time to know whether it feels right or not. Hope it all works out for you and your daughter OP. It has been an interesting thread.

Thanks!

I once had a boyfriend whose mum couldn't stand me. There was an incident early on which I should have and didn't apologise to her for. Not because I wasn't sorry, but because I was embarrassed, and I was at the time a really awkward teenager... Anyway, after that I could do no good so far as she was concerned. I used to avoid seeing her, not because I didn't like her (I did actually like her!) but because I felt horribly awkward knowing that she didn't like me. When I was in her company anything that I said or did was misconstrued and just seemed to reinforce her poor opinion of me. To give an illustrative example, one time she gave me a lovely birthday gift and I gushed over it, because I thought her gift was lovely, thoughtful and I wanted her to know I really appreciated it. But she took my gushing for insincerity. I was left feeling there was really no way I could please her.

Not saying this is you OP, but sometimes when you have an early bad impression of a person then we consciously or unconsciously look for evidence to support that opinion of them. For example, the mansplaining the university. Could there be different ways to interpret that? Perhaps he was trying for a subject he thought would interest you, perhaps he feels the university he went to (if he went to one) was inferior and was trying to relate to you or impress you in a weird way? Maybe good intentions are there but it just comes out wrong with him?

Even if not, and he IS just a tosser, showing him the things you do appreciate about him might make him feel more relaxed and you might get to see a different side to him....

He sounds downright unpleasant and the behaviour you've described is unacceptable. I also consider it worrying that he is your DD's first and only boyfriend and they are getting married after 10 years. It's a bit like saying "we might as well, after 10 years, we have invested so much time/energy, can't be arsed to rejoin the dating game".

OP, I would definitely talk to her.