... to dislike my future son-in-law?

[ElinorRigby]

We had a rare visit from him and my daughter today - the first time we've seen him in over a year. They live in London - about 2 hours away. We sometimes see my daughter in Central London, but her partner is normally 'too busy' to come along.

The nearer the wedding comes - it's scheduled for August - the more I struggle with his behaviour. He's nearly 30 - some of the traits which I put down to adolescence being full of himself don't seem to have worn off. My daughter has been going out with him for over 10 years, and he is the only boyfriend she has ever had.

So today he informed me, when I asked him about his job he told me that I didn't know anything about the corporate world.

He mansplained all sorts of things about a university which I attended and he didn't attend.

He began eating as soon as food was put in front of him. (My husband cooked.)

He didn't thank us for the meal.

He didn't ask either of us anything about our own pursuits or opinions but spent the entire time talking about what he'd done and what he thought.

Interestingly they had travelled up to go to the wedding reception of one of my daughter's oldest friends - before the friend and her new husband emigrate. However, at the last minute he decided he was 'too tired' and so my daughter went to the event on her own.

So is my daughter marrying a rude selfish tosser?

it also implies you have no faith in your DD's judgement. Is there a reason why your DD's boundaries are so poor that she'd marry a 'rude selfish tosser' or has she mentioned she is worried about his selfish tendencies?

This and also a few other posts that they have been together for a long long time! Is she happy? Its hard to tell only skim read through.

Its such a shame if you cant have normal relaxed conversations about this sort of thing so your views can be mentioned but in a relaxed casual way. No one likes hearing people do down the person they love or think they love. Its much easier to convey gentle concern if packaged in a casual conversation about other things.
I personally do not think there is a single thing you could say at this stage that would stop her - and you risk alienating her.
I also want to add there is nothing too bad about what you have said - the talking could be just nerves, and maybe he was starving hungry.
Overall what you describe may annoy me as well but especially if I didnt like the person to begin with.

I feel your going to have to have to say to your dd - your always there for her no matter what - as pre wedding thing - not to do with her DH ( eg you will always be our little girl, even though this day is coming and your getting married, there will always be support and a place for you here - never forget that ) sort of thing and then you need to really give this man some slack. I think you need to try and over look the small indiscretions and come to some sort of internal peace with him.
BTW I had a friend who described a BF like this - rather abrupt with people, her family said he was rude and they werent keen, however she said he never ever said a bad word about anyone, had a heart of gold, and his heart was in the right place, he was just a little rough in social situations.

My sister married a man our parents disliked from the minute they met. He really is an unpleasant, deseptive, controlling man. 12 years later they don't see her or their grandchildren because of him. My advice is to let your dd know how loved she is & you'll always be there if she needs you. There is very little you can do without your dd falling out with you.

Agree with previous posters - you have to let her live her life and be there to catch her when she falls. If you try to split them up now, all you will succeed in is pushing her away and then she'll never come to you when she needs to.

I hated my brothers first wife with a passion,, found it so hard to be in the same room with her (thankfully I think she felt the same as when pleasentries had been completed, she would leave the room and then she would shout goodbye down the stairs as we were leaving, she was the same with all my family) I was very close to him before he met her, things are not the same anymore, (our brother died when I was 15 and younger brother was 9 so I really struggled with losing him when he was 25) they were also together 10 years got married and three months later she left him after telling she had been seeing someone else for over a year. He called me sobbing almost every night at 2/3/4am when he couldn't sleep and after over a week of broken sleep and him saying what am I going to do, everybody liked her, she was wonderful, I told him I hated her, my parents hated her, my aunts, uncles and cousins hated her (I was a bit kinder that I've written here) went to visit him that weekend and he was very angry, kept asking why we never told him and we told him that he was so in love with her, if we had told him he would have been furious and may have cut us out of his life and then he wouldn't have us now when he needed us. We all told him we will never tell him we didn't like his girlfriends! He's with a wonderful lady now and they have just made me Aunty for the first time!

No, it's not Lobster Boy. That was my thread and a long time ago, but I am amazed and humbled some of you still remember it.

It isn't going well to be honest. DD is becoming more and more distant. She and her sister are no longer on speaking terms after LB kicked off at the time of her sister's graduation. DD still has some family love, I think, and came home for a couple of days before Christmas, but seemed like a stranger. She says we never welcomed her 'life partner' into the family and he 'speaks truth', she sees us all differently. LB says he doesn't want anything to do with any of DD's family, even though I was the only one who fell out with him. I am not entirely out of contact, but there is resentment, she has stopped replying to messages, and I don't want to bombard her or put her under pressure. Ultimately, the fear is that she may cut contact with us, as a means of coping.

When she came to stay, she said - off guard - she had made all his meals for two days and written down when he had to eat and what he had to eat - or he would just eat biscuits.

My DH spoke to her a few days ago, said - which she agreed - we must keep in touch. She said at Christmas that she loved me, but I feel it's all hanging by a thread. I feel in despair to be honest, and torment myself by looking at threads about estranged DC and thinking this may happen, what have I done wrong, what could I have done differently.

On the plus side, my other DD are as loving and close as could be, so I must cherish that and live in the present.

But OP, so many parallels, DD's other half, when we saw him, was lacking in politeness in so many ways, far more than your potential son in law, to the extent where I also wondered if he were on the spectrum. Neither he nor DD have worked since graduating two years ago (apart from DD had a holiday job in 2015 for 3 weeks). Neither of them want to get jobs, as they are 'different from other people' and don't want to be 'wage slaves' or 'mortgage monkeys'. She seems happy, but I wonder where the future is. If the relationship ends, she will have nothing - no home, no job, no money. Of course we will be there for her and I love her so much that maybe she has to let us go to be happy and I don't want her relationship to end if she will be unhappy.

But it is so hard. I worry constantly, I don't sleep. Sorry, I don't want to be a 'pity party'. Just be careful OP, be very careful.

I worry so much about her, but anything I say is rejected. I am sure that he reads all of her e-mails and discusses how she should respond to everybody, including her family. They are together 24/7.

There is so much more and I don't want to hijack OP's thread. I am desperately trying to hold it together. I should have kept my mouth shut. I wish I could go back in time; whatever money I lost would be worth it not to lose her. I don't know how it will end. He is controlling and dreadful, but he controls her. As the saying goes 'Keep your friends close and your enemies closer'. He was and is my enemy, but I lost my sxxt and didn't keep it together, as I should have done.

OP, my firm advice is to put up with him, however bad he seems. Hopefully, your DD will see the light, but she may not.

Salford don't blame yourself. He would've found something to use as a wedge between your DD and her family, that type always do. You acted out of love and hopefully one day she'll see that.

Wow thanks for the brutal and honest update on lobster boy. ❤️☹️

Oh I'm sorry to hear that Salford. I remember lobster boy too.

Can I just say that it is not being an only child that makes people entitled and selfish. It is people being allowed to get away with it.

Yes to this. I realise this is not the topic of the OP's post (and I do have sympathies OP) but please let's not perpetuate bullshit myths about only children that well-rounded, un-entitled ones have to constantly disprove for the rest of their lives.

Very sad situation, & we now have no contact with my Mum,as she has disliked my partner of 15 years, to the point where we can no longer tolerate her spiteful words & nasty behaviour. We have made excuses for her over the years, & her blatant refusal to accept him, has pushed me further away from her. He's a wonderful man,kind, hard working, makes me laugh & a great Father. She is missing out on her grandchildren, & sadly all because she thinks he's not good enough for me.

Salford - that must be so hard for you, so sorry that LB has such a hold on your DD. I do hope that the scales fall from her eyes before too much longer, but so long as you keep that thin thread of communication open, at least she'll know she has an escape route if she needs one.

Someone upthread suggested the OP start pulling the rude tosser up on his behaviour - I don't recommend this as a course, as, if it does penetrate his armour, he's going to not only take offence, but also use it as an excuse to further distance himself and your DD from you. You need to remain polite, sadly, so that your DD doesn't feel that she has to choose between you. Currently, he's the one forcing that choice by refusing to accompany her - that's all to the good. Don't make it YOU that forces that choice, because you will end up being cut out. :(

My husband and I had an interesting conversation with the parents of my daughter's boyfriend.

Essentially they were probing as to how much more money we might be able to give my daughter so that she and her boyfriend could buy a second property, while - in the meantime - renting out the first house they bought. We'd given some money, thought not a huge sum, towards the purchase of the first property.

When we explained that it was not really possible for us to give any more because whatever we gave to our older daughter, an equal sum would also have to be given to our son and our younger daughter - so in effect any gift give would have to be tripled - they looked bemused. As if the concept of of having to divide up resources fairly between children was a wholly unfamiliar one.

I have no doubt that there are many, many delightful only children around. (Some of my best friends etc.) Ditto many, many delightful parents of only children. (Again some of my best friends.)

However, despite my liking for the parents of my daughter's boyfriend, I do feel that it is likely his character has been partly shaped by the lack of siblings - by being the sole object of his parents' affection and generosity.

Rather as my own character has undoubtedly been shaped by having two siblings and also by our respective positions in the family.

It is, literally, none of your business. I have two sons who have married wives who make them and their families very happy, and on first meeting them I would have chosen neither of them as wives for my children. But because I believe that if you can be confident that you brought your children up as well as you could, and that once they are independent their own business is their own business, I said nothing. Many years on, I see that I was wrong about both of them: they are wonderful wives and fantastic mothers. In particular, one of them - whom I wrote off as a spoiled, entitled and materialistic know-all, has supported my son lovingly and unselfishly through harrowing episodes of mental illness in a way that moves me; as much as it admonishes me that that the greatest gift you can bestow on your children is to keep your trap firmly shut until you are asked [I never was]. After all, if the OP's daughter has chosen an over-entitled boor as a husband, whence did she learn the idea that that was how marriages worked?

Well said Strygil. Too many parents fail to adopt this sensible boundary respecting stance, and when their relationships with their adult offspring flounder in this way, I am afraid they only have their own interfering selves to blame.
As hard and as sad as it is, it really is their life to live the way they choose.

If looking out for your child's best interests isn't a parents business, I'm not sure what is. I have been reading about OP's concern, worry and angst about her daughter - not her interference.
Meddling parents who telling couples what to eat, where to live, how to run their homes often litter MN as concerns - but worrying about your child's future happiness is natural enough.

Is the future in laws asking for financial contribution for their second home interference too?

I was with my DH for 4 years when we got married against my fathers wishes. My father didn't speak to me for two years after that. DH remembers everything DF said to the two of us, although I do point out to him that every father grills he future SIL at first meeting, and their first meeting was a week before we married (I'd been living 'overseas' and had come home once a year for holiday, without DP) Anyway the rest of my family accepted him as my choice. Although my sister who I'm very close with did tell me a few days before we married that she thought he was a wimp. Which I've always remembered despite it being 9 years ago ... she is now planning on marrying this year and asked me what I think of him, and I've told her that I don't have anything negative to say about him but even if I did I wouldn't tell her as she had really hurt my feelings back then. (I would tell her if I thought she was making a terrible mistake but I would also tell her I would support her no matter her decision). Anyway she apologised. I pointed out it had made me feel unsupported at the time.

3 years after we married, DH had never gone back to my home country, DM came to stay for three weeks to 'break the ice' as she put it, and at the end of it invited him to come on holiday to her home and he agreed but to date 9 years later he has never gone despite my going back twice a year as I am very close to my family and DF and I are close again.

3 years ago We had our first child and my parents came to stay for three months. It was both a huge help to me to have help with the baby and also a terrible stress and both my parents realised how much they dislike my DH. DF wanted me to pack my bags and move back to my home country with my son. DM told me when the two of us were alone that she thought I had made a terrible mistake and didn't know what I saw in him and then proceeded to list all the flaws that she had noted. The worst thing was that I was hating my DH by then too as he was being a total shit and moaning to me about my DF and not helping me with the baby and moaning about how tired he was, how badly he was sleeping, how hard he was working, moaning. When I asked him to do anything he wouldn't do it or I had to ask 10 times and it would get done days later. DM even made the comment that if I saw he wasn't doing something I asked then I shouldn't ask again and do it myself or she would help me (he had lots of boxes of tools etc standing around and I had friends coming over and wanted them out in the shed - when mum and I did it ourselves (I'd had a c section) he got so upset we had to move it back!)

My response to DM then was look, I've made my bed and I have to lie in it, but it would be nice if you could be supportive. Which to be fair she was. And even DF although he said what he did, didn't cut me off again as he had before.

Then 2 years later when 2nd DC was born my parents came for 3 months again and it was completely different. They still don't like him, but they are all civil. DH doesn't know that DM dislikes him. They are all trying for me I think. But my relationship with DH has been damaged. TBH I don't think t was my parents though. I think he did that all by himself, with help from me.

We are trying to get along for the sake of role modelling for the children. But if it was not for the kids I would've left him. I had blinkers on for almost ten years before I suddenly couldn't stand things anymore.

I complain to his parents and they tell me, but we were together for so long before babies, why did I have babies with him? And I tell them, babies opened my eyes. I wanted to leave him when DC1 was a baby but then we got along again eventually and I wanted a companion for DC1 and by the time we were hating each other again after DC2, DC1 was old enough to be crazy about dad and would be devastated if I left so I can't.

I can now be fairly (within reason) open with DM and complain to her about DH and she never says I told you so. She's actually really supportive. However I have never told her how much she truly hurt my feelings and my relationship because whenever she didn't like a boyfriend, that would signal the end for me. So her views did cloud my attitude toward him. The reason I would never tell her is that she would be terribly hurt knowing how much she hurt me. I'm not being noble, I just think in this case I have more empathy than she does.

So long story short - your daughter needs you. You can tell her that there are aspects of their relationship - stress that you know it's only from your outside perspective - that trouble you and that you will support her no matter what but you are worried that for example he disrespects her etc or whatever it is you're most concerned about. Tell her you're not judging her, you're not rejecting him, you would love to get to know him better, the real him that she's in love with.

I think the problem is that your relationship is not that strong. I am fortunate in that my relationship with my DM is and always has been.

Mumyum, children aren't idiots. They know when something is bad. Putting on a front by staying together as a role model for your kids isn't going to work. Kids can smell bullshit. You are modelling staying in a bad relationship.

Yes I know that which is why I'm working on myself first to see where I can fix my own broken bits as a first step toward fixing the relationship. I'm not an innocent though Not the cause of the initial issues.

Yes tapandgo..we are all naturally hopeful for our children's wellbeing and happiness, but we can't and should not seek to approve or disapprove of the choices they make as adults. All we can do is bring them up to hopefully make the choices that will make them happy, stronger, or with a bit of luck, both!
If my mother had ever expressed the notion that she felt my choice of partner was wrong, I would have been hugely affronted. Likewise with my sister and her disastrous marriage. Yet all she ever did was give us emotional support and was eternally civil & respectfully polite to our respective other halves. And in the end we found our own ways through the bad choice quagmires. That's life.
And yes, contributing financially is also interference in my book, my MIL uses money to control her daughter's lives, and openly showing approval/disapproval with regards to their other halves, has very much come with that territory. Consequently, they have many houses between them, their disgruntled partners are very much on the peripherals of their lives, and their contempt towards her could not be more apparent! It is very much meddling and interference. My parents ensured we had a good education, led by example and guided us into the world as confident young adults. The rest, was all down to us, and all we can hope for is that we can do the same for our own children.

Maybe you don't see in him what your dd does. My parents weren't keen on my dh, however my ddad admitted the other day that they had judged him harshly initially as they didn't think he was good enough for me but now they love him. He is a supportive husband (we have been married 15 years) and has been there for me through post natal depression, six miscarriages and my dgran death and he is a great dad
His initial arrogance they now admit it was that he was shy and unsure of himself. Maybe you are right but over time you will see the man your dd sees

We can't and should not seek to approve or disapprove of the choices they make as adults.

I don't think it is possible - or desirable - that one should switch off one's brain. Certainly I don't think inner feelings of disapproval or approval should necessarily be voiced or that one should seek to control the behaviour of independent adults.

However, one just notices stuff.

I noticed that on this visit my daughter didn't start helping to prepare the food as she would normally do. Instead she sat by her boyfriend.

I noticed that she didn't wait for her father to sit down before eating. Instead she imitated her boyfriend's behaviour.

I noticed that when I told her that if she'd stayed longer - which had been the original plan - that we'd have taken her to see her 95 year old grandfather who she used to be very fond of, that she didn't say anything about it being a shame there wasn't this time or express a desire to see him at a future visit.

I noticed that when I asked her about future job plans - the workplace - that she is currently in has some difficulties, and she has been quite career focused - she said she didn't have any. She would stay where she was until her boyfriend got a new job, and then she would find something else where he was.

I noticed that when he told me very brusquely that I was ignorant about corporate life and had made completely wrong assumptions about his workplace, that she remained silent rather than making any diplomatic comment that might have bridged the gap e.g. 'Well actually I think you're both right. Because I've always thought the people you work are a bit... etc etc..'

I have certainly tried to make allowances for the fact that I have a particular set of cultural assumptions, and so there may be a need to work a bit harder to appreciate his good qualities.

I have considered the 'social anxiety' hypothesis. But am not, on balanced, convinced.

It is entirely possible that if my daughter continues to do everything her husband-to-be wants and expects of her that she will think that she is very happy. (And of course, there is the possibility that having children will enable them to live even more happily ever after.)

It does sound that your DD believes that her dp is more important than she is, due to his "higher intelligence" & earnings-This is pure sexism. It sounds like she has been manipulated.
I agree with pps that you should not say anything negative about the dp, but i think you may be able to talk to dd about her seeming to lost confidence in herself and noticing she's not seeming to value her professional worth after doing so well at uni working in a good career...You could talk about the importance of nurturing your working life & earning potential if you have dcs by using your own experience as an example.
Could you go away for a pre wedding mother/daughter weekend. Giving her the opportunity to talk to you?

Sorry about the terrible grammar there.

Of course Elinor, don't get me wrong, I do wholly sympathise with your situation, and of course we cannot just 'switch off' in terms of own inner disquiet and like you say..noticing things. But I do think you need to rein in that concern, hard as it might be at times.
When I look back at some of my previous boyfriends and choices I made in life, I realise how much we continuously change and evolve, not just from child to teen to fledgling young adults..but throughout the decades of our life. Now nearing 50, I know that change and those lessons, were all an essential part of who I am today. Be strong for your daughter OP, things will work out one way or another.

Tell your daughter the Truth. She deserves it. Doesn't matter how long it's gone on or how old she is. She deserves the Truth. This does not mean telling her what to do ie dump him. Do you really believe that a gentle honest conversation will mean that she will immediately dump you instead and never speak to you again and the best approach is to stand aside with a mask over your face and only be honest with her when it reaches crisis point?
Talk to her gently without critising or advising. His behaviour is ringing big alarm bells. Discouraging her from seeing old friends and family, public ally telling people she's less intelligent than him. I agree with the poster who said this has all the hallmarks of abuse. It's her first boyfriend. How is saying nothing helping her?
It sounds like he's very controlling and perhaps she needs a kind person to discuss this with. But don't be confrontational about it. You don't have to say I hate him call it off but instead try to open up about your concerns and give her a chance to talk to you. Perhaps he's ok at heart and things would be better in the relationship if she learns that it's ok to stand up for herself. She's clearly struggling to do that. Who is going to tell her?
It sounds like no one ever challenges this twit, and let's him pontificate away. She did and you did. You are all tiptoeing around him. So if she never sees anyone else challenge him, it's not surprising she doesn't either. Challenge these utterances in a jokey lighthearted way, exposing them for what they are, you'll see if he really means it or he's just not self aware.
Talking honestly with her doesn't or shouldn't mean the end of everything.