To ask scots if they actually like Nicola sturgeon

[Karen85]

Just out of curiosity really because she and her voice make me cringe when i hear her on tv or radio.

Love scots though please don't get me wrong.

The solution to what? (genuine question)

YY. I disagree with a lot of SNP policy too, but I recognise they are a means to an end. Once Scotland is independent the SNP will be no more and we can all go back to voting for the parties we used to, and it might even mean Labour and the Tories have a chance in Scotland.

To be fair though, the SNP have done a fairly decent job with very limited control.

Nyx, well ok, I hadn't read those posts by wanker (as I said, I didn't read the whole thread so probably shouldn't have commented). I was basing my comments on the recent posts today. I still think you sound a bit chippy, though. It's the same tone that many SNP politicians use. It's one of the things that puts me off them, rather than their policies and aims, some of which I agree with (eg free prescription, for the reasons Pretty Bird has outlined). Wouldn't it be better if people could admit that things are rarely totally black and white. Most political parties have things we like and things we don't, many politicians are good at some things and not at others. This tribal 'love them', 'hate them' divide is not productive.

calyx, get independence then sort out the crap is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Why not just try to sort the problems. Scotland has many more powers than it used to - can even raise income tax - but the government won't because it doesn't want to lose any block grant. Why not? Because the block grant is a tall a generous deal. I would like to see them use it to further the gov's stated goals. I'd be very happy if that happened.

can even raise income tax - but the government won't because it doesn't want to lose any block grant. Why not? Because the block grant is a tall a generous deal

Erm, what is the point in raising tax in Scotland when it wouldn't mean there was more money to spend in Scotland?

The solution to Scotland's not being self governing, not having the economic levers to grow its economy, to Brexit although Scottish voters wanted remain, to repeatedly having Government it didn't vote for, to being called subsidy junkies and accused of having a better deal than others re: barnett formula, to ... I need to go but will come back sorry (supposed to be working!)

Erm, what is the point in raising tax in Scotland when it wouldn't mean there was more money to spend in Scotland?

Isn't the real point here that we're heavily dependent on the block grant (a fact almost never acknowledged by the SNP)? Surely if the SNP is to demonstrate that an independent Scotland is even feasible, it should be making moves to stand on its own two feet now that it has the opportunity?

Isn't the real point here that we're heavily dependent on the block grant

No. The block grant broadly equals the taxes Scots pay. So Scots pay their taxes to Westminster, a similar amount is given back to the Scottish Government in the form of a block grant.

it should be making moves to stand on its own two feet now that it has the opportunity?

Making Scots pay more tax to have less money is not standing on your own two feet. Standing on your own two feet would be having all the money generated in Scotland stay in Scotland, and lose the block grant.

I don't think any SNP folk would disagree with that, but it's just not on the table.

Exactly youcan. It's all, you're question is bonkers given that the whole point of independence is to have control over Scotland own destiny. If NS wanted that, she could start now by loosening the dependence on the block grant as youcan says. I thought independence wasn't about money but was about sovereignty? .

If NS wanted that, she could start now by loosening the dependence on the block grant

Scotland is dependent on the block grant from Westminster because all taxes raised in Scotland go to Westminster. See my previous post^ if Scotland got to keep all the money it raised then no one would mind the block grant being abolished.

"Scotland is dependent on the block grant from Westminster because all taxes raised in Scotland go to Westminster"

That's not how I understood the new tax raising powers to work.

I am no expert on the fine detail of the finances, but I found this article which seems to suggest that Scotland is still buffered by the UK at this point. If income tax receipts fall, then the UK government will make up the difference with the block grant. That still sounds pretty dependent to me. I would have thought that a country looking to be independent would want to prove that they could survive on income tax alone, unless we're just supposed to believe that that would be the case after independence with no evidence to support it.

www.economist.com/news/britain/21696519-devolving-tax-powers-benefits-scotland-more-rest-britain-may-do-little-keep

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35866776

Tax powers explained here^

Scotland has control over a small proportion of income tax and cannot vary the bands. IE it cannot put tax up for the rich and not the poor, it also cannot redefine who is rich and who is poor in the first place.

But it will do in a couple of month's time Its, when the latest round of powers kick in. Surely that's what all this latest budget discussion has been about. From your link:

"In April 2017, the Scottish Parliament will receive a package of powers. These include;

power to set the rates and bands of income tax on non-savings and non-dividend income

half the share of VAT receipts in Scotland being assigned to the Scottish government's budget

and power over Air Passenger Duty and Aggregates Levy"

My understanding is it can put the rates up for rich by increasing the 45p band on incomes above £150,000. Isn't that what the article you linked to says?

YY. Sorry for confusion. They do have more powers come April, folk had been complaining about SNP not doing stuff in the past...

WRT to the coming powers though, it is obvious that income tax does not work in isolation from other taxes, power over just one tax is a bit of a poisoned chalice...

I was talking about them choosing not to use the new tax-raising powers they will receive shortly, although I think they have changed their stance slightly under duress from the Greens. They are also getting powers over other taxes too Its, so it's not in isolation (although it's not full economic control, fair enough).

Surely the bigger point is that they need to demonstrate that they can do well with what they have before Scots will trust them with independence, and I'm not just including taxes in that. Job creation, good quality education, workable welfare reforms etc. are all things under their remit that they need to do better with. I for one am not going to take the word of the 'independence transcends everything' SNP without firm evidence that I'd be better off in an independent Scotland.

I think the thread has gone off on a bit of tangent. I guess what people are anxious about is that there is a lot of uncertainty, what with Brexit, and it feels like the Scottish government is using this to justify indyref2 when indyref1 was hugely divisive, and that this move is disingenuous. It is arguable whether Scotland voted to remain in the way NS characterises it. Yes, it was a majority vote, but on a fairly weak turnout, and the question asked made no reference to any conditions eg, would you want to remain if the rest of the UK votes leave, for example. Would you prefer to stay in the union and leave, or be independent and vote remain. The fact that NS hinted that if leave won there would be indyref2 might well have increased a leave vote among independence supporters etc etc. It's so complicated, and the SNP just come across as untrustworthy in the way they are dealing with it. I can understand wanker sleek it reference.

wanker's sleekit reference

Well, whilst it was nice of someone to go back through the whole thread and cherry pick my posts, I'm not going to do the same. Without checking, I am fairly certain that they were directed about Nicola and the SNP and their policies, not at individual posters or SNP supporters et al. And this on a post where we were asked our view on NS (aka Our Leader)

Isn't it nice to be living in 1984? Maybe I'll get my legwarmers out

Maybe there would be room for a nice discussion and compromise if there was any likelihood of compromise or listening or fairness applied. The simple fact is that the SNP don't want to listen to anyone that doesn't agree with them and doesn't allow dissent so that discussion and debate can take place in order to formulate a more measured approach to anything. It's all or nothing as far as they are concerned and always will be . I don't think independence at any costs is a way to approach things.

I think that sums it up pretty well wellthatsit.

it's not full economic control

This ^is the important point. Without full control you can only tinker around the edges, and if something goes wrong you can't use other taxes to balance.

Job creation, good quality education, workable welfare reforms etc.

1. As you said, they don't have full control.
2. The block grant is being slashed year on year
3. They are doing a pretty decent job eg just announced today that Scotland has 2nd highest rate of youth employment in Europe (Germany first)

I don't think they are doing a decent job overall. Educational standards are another big issue for me, and I'm extremely concerned that they're slipping under the SNP.

From a recent report:
"It said: "There is no specific area where able children in Scotland really excel. The major weaknesses include a pronounced and sustained decline in able pupils' performance in science, equivalent to around a year of schooling, over the last decade.""

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38922338

I don't think they are doing a decent job overall.

That is a.matter of.opinion, and I'm sure we can both find things to back up our opinions

I'm sure we can Its. It's such a subjective statement you could find reports to support just about any view. I guess, in the end, we have to go by our won experiences.