To ask scots if they actually like Nicola sturgeon

[Karen85]

Just out of curiosity really because she and her voice make me cringe when i hear her on tv or radio.

Love scots though please don't get me wrong.

Wankers I thought you were talking about the SNP. Of whom I am a member. How can a policy be sleekit? Surely that's a term levelled at a person or people.

But you have stated otherwise so I will take no offence. I got your meaning wrong.

*It wasn't aimed at you - I'd have said if it was. I said "Those that claim...."

I have said nothing about you being racist or anti-foreigner. confused*

In which case I apologise. I assumed you were referring to me as I can't remember anyone else mentioning the words 'English relatives' and 'foreigners' on this thread. I do, however, maintain that everyone has the right to value their nationality as they perceive it, and that this shouldn't be ridiculed, even if you don't personally feel that way.

Scottish here and I absolutely cannot stand her or the SNP

Even while agreeing Scotland should decide its own future I can say I would feel less attachment to the state and it's collectivist functions upon independence, with a big part of my family over the border. It's just the way I feel. And no I don't agree that it's nationalistic, they are my family not just random Welsh and English..

I joke that I will be the equivalent of a Yugoslav one day - I have Scots, Irish, Welsh and English heritage. It is not a complaint folks, merely a wry observation.

My experience is different, yes. I see the unionist newspapers and media which pour scorn on anything SNP. And I am told on this thread that we are delusional and living in la la land. Being sneered at, in fact.

Our experiences are indeed different! I would love to see more scrutiny of the SNPs more disingenuous (and sometimes blatantly ridiculous) claims. But I disapprove of sneering from either side as it's not acceptable or helpful and only entrenches views rather than opening up debate.

I wish I had written Prettybird's post.

And I have been called biased and inference has been made on this thread that my posts are not intelligent or fair (Wankers I asked for clarification but you didn't reply so I'm assuming you did mean that). And joking aside, I was hurt.

Unionists claim Nationalists are vitriolic and vice versa. All we can do is try not to be vitriolic when we discuss and debate differing viewpoints. We learn from these discussions. I have learned that some Unionists really do feel emotional and sick at the thought of an independent Scotland (I honestly thought that was an exaggeration until this thread).

And I didn't say that the economy was irrelevant, I said it got thrown out of the bath with the baby at the Brexit referendum. So I'm just saying so what if we do the bulk of our trade with England, we do the bulk of our trade currently with the EU or because of the EU. But that doesn't matter to leavers, so why should it matter to Scots ?

I'm not sure I understand this Mother - leavers are foolish for not caring about trade with the EU, so we should be even more foolish and ignore our trade with the UK? I genuinely don't understand your argument. Plus, the UK economy is far from screwed, as most economists are now saying (having adjusted their models for the better than expected response to the Brexit vote). The Scottish economy unfortunately seems much more fragile.

Nyx, I don't know who called you delusional on this thread (haven't read the whole thread) but I think wanders and youcan have been exemplary in their use of language - rational, clear and fair, and not sneering in Amy way. You sound defensive and chippy, which kind of reminds me of how the SNP react when challenged. I am astounded that while we are going through Brexit, with all its massive uncertainties, that Nicola Sturgeon seems he'll bent on agitating for indyref2, and it smacks of opportunism and recklessness to me. There is so much to put in place with Brexit that it would be much more sensible to take time to see how the land lies first. Not to mention the whole 'don't want to be controlled by Westminster/don't mind being controlled by Brussels' contradiction, which is never publicly acknowledged.

Sorry Wankers but your direct statement was "They are sleekit as fuck" So I think I am justified in taking offence.

And people can be active MPs in a Parliament which they'd rather not be a member of, do the best job they can while they are there (in contrast to UKIP MEPs ) but still be happy to go back to being a QC, lawyer, teacher, doctor etc at a future date.

On free prescriptions, I used to work as a manager in the NHS (mostly in England, joining through a pilot scheme that encourage so called high flyers in from industry and exposing us to the best of health provision thinking, but also for a short time in Scotland when I moved back up). One of the debates around even at that time was the cost of administering prescriptions (including checking whether people were indeed eligible for "free" ones), plus the added cost of people not picking up their scripts because they couldn't afford it/didn't think they were unwell enough to justify the expense and then ending up needing more expensive treatment needed to be considered alongside the revenue brought in from prescription charges. That in the long run, it was cheaper for the NHS not to have prescription charges. That's even before you begin the discussion about whether "health care free at the point of use" should include the medication you need to take as part of "using" that healthcare.

She is a remainer yet insists on hard brexit, she said 65million people were behind her on brexit. That is simply not true. She is making the SNP in Holyrood look a little bit silly.

If she actually said that all of the 65 million UK citizens voted for Brexit then that is obviously as ridiculous as the SNP claiming all of Scotland voted remain, so I agree with you there. But I don't see how 'Brexit' can be anything other than a 'hard brexit' (assuming this means to leave the single market - note, this doesn't necessarily mean no access to it) as we voted to leave the EU, and so all it's institutions. I realise I'm in the minority here, but I see that statement as a negotiating tactic, because if she said she wanted to remain in the single market the EU are then in a much stronger position and able to make more demands.

Wellthatsit - nobody has called me personally delusional, it was aimed at the SNP/Nicola Sturgeon. I'm a member of the SNP so yes, I do get defensive. Chippy? Thanks. Wankers has been exemplary in use of language while stating SNP are sleekit as fuck. Lovely. Not to mention "She's a fuckwit, I hate her and everything she stands for. I wouldn't breath her outgoing breath if I was starving for oxygen. She is actually making me ashamed to be Scottish. She has stolen the symbols of Scotland, our flag etc and make them represent a horrible racist attitude." Also "too tired to be arguing the toss about that sleekit gobshite and her bunch of monkeys". If that's your idea of exemplary use of language then I beg to differ.

Sorry Wankers but your direct statement was "They are sleekit as fuck" So I think I am justified in taking offence

No you are not pb what whatever....

The statement was directly at the end of a post about how the SNP policy makers were conducting themselves in being sleekit about spending money on things that made it look like Scotland had a better deal to push in the rUKs face whilst using money that could be spent on things that would actually alleviate the things that they blame westminster for.

If you feel that you are complicit in that then fair enough. I'm done!

And you wonder why I feel defensive and you think I'm chippy.

This is what is wrong with Scotland at the moment. It's not possible to criticise the SNP and Scottish government without people taking offence. It's totally fucked up and really not healthy.

It's not possible to unfairly criticise without offence being taken. I think examples of bad policy etc are taken in stride, insults 'sleekit as fuck', delusional, etc are allowed to be viewed as offensive.

I know I too feel people who support the SNP will not take criticism of the SNP at all. It'seems almost like keep quiet till we get indy then we can sort the crap out then.
The thing is to many many non SNP supporters in Scotland we feel, and have every right to, that the SNP are damaging Scotland and we see NS blatantly lying by saying she respects the vote in 2014 and she is working for all people in Scotland while at the same time saying independence transends everything. So what is it cause it can't be both. Why can't SNP supporters accept she is lying one way or another on that point and if people want to call her and her party sleekit can you not see for that one point alone they may have a point.

Well said cheeseandcrackers77. Criticism of the way the SNP conducts itself is just as valid as criticism of individual policies.

'Keep quiet till we get Indy and sort the crap out then' Actually this I agree with. Totally. It's exactly how I feel.

'Keep quiet till we get Indy and sort the crap out then' Actually this I agree with. Totally. It's exactly how I feel.

What do you mean Calyx? You agree that this is the tactic used by the SNP (shut down all dissent and debate until they achieve the goal of independence, and then start dealing with Scotland's problems), or you agree that this is a tactic that the SNP should use?

No no not a party tactic, just me, I believe Indy is the solution and the SNP the only party which can feasibly achieve it in my lifetime. So although I don't agree with every policy and can see reasonable arguments against this or that policy of theirs, I don't think any of the other parties could or would be any better while Scotland is in the Union.

Therefore get Indy then sort out the crap.