To ask scots if they actually like Nicola sturgeon

[Karen85]

Just out of curiosity really because she and her voice make me cringe when i hear her on tv or radio.

Love scots though please don't get me wrong.

They'll stay in power until another party is voted into power.

And 'I assume "inclusive, welcoming SNP" is ironic; how welcoming are they towards the English or the Tories?' FGS. The SNP are welcoming to anybody who comes and makes their home in Scotland, whether they be English or anybody else. That's what civic nationalism is. And why in the name of all that is good should they be welcoming to Tories?? Tories are certainly not welcoming to the SNP! That is a daft thing to say.

So basically I agree with what Itsall said earlier - "However I find the SNP in the main racist (against England mainly)

People keep saying this, but I am yet to see any evidence at all?

but think it's okay for them to be "Scotland First" while slagging his "America First" policy

Civic vs ethnic nationalism msu.edu/user/hillrr/161lec16.htm"

And why in the name of all that is good should they be welcoming to Tories??

Aren't tories people then? (and no, I'm not affiliated with any particular party.) I'm not saying I agree with their policies, but surely you recognise how dangerous it is to hound out anyone with opposing views? Especially as there have consistently been about 15-20% of the Scottish electorate who voted Tory in the last few decades. It seems this fairly large proportion of our own people are not currently welcome in their country. That's not what I would call inclusive.

The question of who would be in government also raises some interesting issues, because our Scottish Parliament was not actually designed to run an independent country. We have no second chamber and so no checks and balances as other systems do, so the parliamentary system would probably need an overhaul to avoid the situation we had when the SNP managed to break the system and get an overall majority, but then implemented (or tried to, if there weren't legal challenges) a series of bad legislation. It's also reasonable to think that we'd start from the point we were at when we left the UK, which would mean an SNP government. I can't see them letting control of the reins either.

So, what if the English people we were so welcoming to were Tories? You can't run your policies round the only people being welcome are the ones voting for your own party, though I am sure they would if they could. I saw an activist on line saying that only people born and living in Scotland should get a vote in indyref 2....and loads were agreeing.

"Aren't tories people then? (and no, I'm not affiliated with any particular party.) I'm not saying I agree with their policies, but surely you recognise how dangerous it is to hound out anyone with opposing views? Especially as there have consistently been about 15-20% of the Scottish electorate who voted Tory in the last few decades. It seems this fairly large proportion of our own people are not currently welcome in their country. That's not what I would call inclusive."

Yes of course people who vote Tory are people. You show me one instance of a Tory voter being "hounded out" by the SNP. Tory policies might be unwelcome but anybody living in Scotland is welcome to live in Scotland. Prove to me otherwise.

On the other hand, the amount of vitriol I hear and see towards people who vote SNP and indeed the party itself, in the papers and in comment threads etc.

SNP are 'welcoming' to Tory voters not Tory politicians of course. A few of my own family are Tory voters. We just don't discuss politics

Agreed Nyx

I saw an activist on line saying that only people born and living in Scotland should get a vote in indyref 2

I've seen that too! It's amazing how nationalistic (in an ethnic way) some Unionists can be.

Mother I think it was right for TM to go and visit, as to do otherwise would mean to snub a fairly petulant president who would probably take it personally. I think inviting him for a state visit was premature, but it's done now and I don't think it can be undone without causing similar offence. I actually do think that TM is doing what she believes is best for the whole of the UK, including Scotland, and I don't think we should be tying her hands too much with demands, or the UK (and so Scotland) will end up with a worse deal. I am however pleased that parliament got it's say, and that there is so much discussion about what is best way forward from many different sources (I caught some of the evidence sessions with various experts on the parliament channel a few days ago, and MPs from all parties were sitting on the committee and raising various concerns). It's a shame in a lot of the ways that the less combative side to Westminster never seems to make the news, as I think you can get the impression that it's all shouting and no compromise.

I think you're right that we can't know what will happen or what the best path is (although I disagree that the economic and trade arguments are irrelevant after Brexit, I think they're more important that ever). But I genuinely think that making ourselves smaller and more insular is not the way to deal with that uncertainty, not least because of all the extra uncertainty that would bring.

I don't see any significant difference between Tory views being unwelcome and Tories being unwelcome. Unless you're suggesting that those people should never express their views? This is bigger than the SNP, but their hatred for all things Tory is extremely clear and is fuelling a narrowing of 'acceptable' viewpoints in Scotland. It's about whether our country welcomes a range of viewpoints, and so is politically diverse, or whether we're saying that you're welcome here as long as you're a left wing socialist because we don't want anyone who isn't like us. This becomes even more important if we were to vote for independence, because the only government we would then have would be the one at Holyrood.

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us - oh come on. You are not making sense. A diverse range of viewpoints is of course welcome. Look at this thread. I do not see a narrowing of viewpoints.

'The only government we would have then would be the one at Holyrood'. Well, yes. Correct me if I'm wrong but that is normally how it works. One government per country. What??? Am I missing something?

The government in Holyrood would have at least five parties, possibly more. And they would all be Scottish. Not branch offices. FFS. One of them would even be Tory. And it might do well. Who knows?

All views can be expressed and then debated and argued. But you know this.

Also I have seen petitions by unionists trying to stop EU nationals voting in an indyref2.

I think iScotland is looking to be smaller and LESS insular (re Brexit)

The post I saw was by an snp supporter not a unionist.

I'm glad to know that I am as sleekit as fuck

Because that is the implication as I am a supporter of the SNP .

But given that in general I think that wankers is a reasonable person and I'm sure didn't mean to make such an outrageous generalisation, I'll try and address the substance of her comments.

Ds is at a secondary school where there are 55 languages spoken: Urdu, Punjabi, Polish, Roumanian, French, Italian, Spanish, Albanian are amongst some of the languages. His primary school had a majority of pupils for whom English was a 2nd language (I think there were 20 languages spoken, but the main language was Urdu). At both schools he got/is getting an excellent education. Despite - or because of that - we are an area which voted overwhelmingly Remain (higher than the Scottish average) and voted Yes in the Indyref. "Foreigners" don't scare us.

It is indeed about Civic nationalism.

One of my MN friends, who is now also a RL friend, is English and moved up here specifically because she didn't like what was happening in English politics and wanted to be able to vote Yes.

I've talked with SNP MPs who've said they would like nothing better than to "lose" their jobs and not have to commute down to London. They'd love to go back to their "old" jobs - they're not career politicians.

I am an adopted Scot. I was not born here but have lived here since I was 3 (barring an emigration and a reimmigration in my teens to NZ). I don't feel any less Scottish because of that. My father, who arrived here in his late 20s, considers himself to be Scottish (despite his accent which I can't hear but everyone else notices)

I also don't love my relatives (in South Africa, Germany, Denmark, Australia) any less because they are "foreign" In fact, I think those that claim that it would damage their relationship with their English relatives because they would then be "foreign" are guilty of the worst form of nationalism .

If/when Scotland becomes independent, it will be up to all the parties who aspire to run the country (as opposed to complain from the sidelines) to ensure that they have viable policies that will encourage people to vote for them. That's what democracy, elections and manifestos are for.

I used to be a Labour voter. I was brought up to believe in socialist ideals - education and health at the forefront (it's no coincidence that my dad was a doctor and my mum a teacher). I still believe in those ideals. I'd love to have the choice of a real Labour Party to vote for. One that actually had principles (Ok, that's a mirror image of the "sleekit" accusation that Wankers threw at SNP, so I really shouldn't generalise ). I do see the SNP splintering if/once independence is achieved, once that common objective is attained. Having said that, all the SNP members I have met are naturally left wing many of them former Labour but say they will never go near Labour again so there may not be much of a change. I don't know. But the future shape of parties will be up to the people of Scotland (wherever they came from initially).

What Prettybird said, with bells on

Echoed. Excellent post.

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us - oh come on. You are not making sense. A diverse range of viewpoints is of course welcome. Look at this thread. I do not see a narrowing of viewpoints.

This thread is not real life, and in real life (at least in my experience) anyone expressing anything that might be considered a Tory view is sneered at. I also see this all the time when our elected representatives are interviewed, and they tell us what 'the people of Scotland' think about x,y and z while liberally applying the words 'right wing' and 'Tory' as pejorative terms. This is what I mean by fuelling a narrowing of acceptable viewpoints, at least as far as public perception goes. Perhaps your experience is different.

The only government we would have then would be the one at Holyrood'. Well, yes. Correct me if I'm wrong but that is normally how it works. One government per country. What??? Am I missing something?

Yes, you missed my earlier comment about the Holyrood system being a single chamber that was not designed for running a country as it lacks the checks and balances that are found in other countries (like the Lords in the UK). Unless this issue is fixed, we'll be saddled with more poorly thought through legislation of the centralised police force/named person variety.

I'm actually all for many parties with different viewpoints coming together and thrashing out all angles before reaching a decision. I think that's more likely to lead to balanced and well thought out legislation. I'm not convinced we get anything approaching that with the SNP at the healm, and I doubt they'll want to give up power if they achieve independence.

I also don't love my relatives (in South Africa, Germany, Denmark, Australia) any less because they are "foreign" confused In fact, I think those that claim that it would damage their relationship with their English relatives because they would then be "foreign" are guilty of the worst form of nationalism sad.

I assume that this was aimed at me. I never claimed that my relatives becoming foreigners (which they would) would make me love them less. I was merely expressing my personal feeling of sadness if the various parts of my heritage became splintered. I doubt I'm alone i that. Frankly, I think the attempt to try and twist my words to imply that I'm 'anti-foreigner' and so a racist is pretty disgraceful. I have relatives from all over the UK and I feel connected to all parts of the UK, and no-one has the right to tell me that I shouldn't value that, just as I have no right to tell you how you should feel about your sense of national identity.

I didn't call the SNP supporters sleekit I was talking about SNP policies. That was fairly obvious.

I think if someone earns a living from being a political then that's their career and if their heart isn't in representing their constituents rather than their party then they shouldn't be doing it.

It wasn't aimed at you - I'd have said if it was. I said "Those that claim...."

I have said nothing about you being racist or anti-foreigner.

I have explained my experience and that I believe my area voted the way that it did because of its multi-culturalism (although I didn't use that word in my post) and its lack of fear of foreigners. I've explained a positive, not a negative.

"This thread is not real life, and in real life (at least in my experience) anyone expressing anything that might be considered a Tory view is sneered at. I also see this all the time when our elected representatives are interviewed, and they tell us what 'the people of Scotland' think about x,y and z while liberally applying the words 'right wing' and 'Tory' as pejorative terms. This is what I mean by fuelling a narrowing of acceptable viewpoints, at least as far as public perception goes. Perhaps your experience is different."

My experience is different, yes. I see the unionist newspapers and media which pour scorn on anything SNP. And I am told on this thread that we are delusional and living in la la land. Being sneered at, in fact.