to wonder what planet the 'ban Trump from the UK' people are living on

[roseshippy]

Yes I understand that he's a sexist, racist, whatever-else-ist.

But he evidently thinks fondly of the UK, we are currently in the process of saying 'fuck off' to mainland Europe, so we will be a small, friendless island in the North Sea in need of some help.

AIBU to think that we need to suffer a bit of schmoozing from dodgy foreign leaders as part of post-Brexit Britain? (Actually didn't we already schmooze dodgy foreign leaders long before Brexit?)

And in reality Trump is rather less dodgy than the average world leader, if we exclude the EU, as we have done

What are the other choices?

Ooh sorry

That will teach me not to press refresh

Ultimately he's trying to reduce the number of real fascists with disgraceful beliefs entering the US. Those that still are not convinced that burying a woman up to her neck and stoning her is all that wrong; or sewing up women's private parts, or inculcating young people to become suicide bombers. You know, that sort of important stuff ....... South

This, was the piece I was replying to with regards to Saudi

You made this one of the reasonings for the ban, not the whole reason, but one

ivy - I have consistently said - esp. to Narky - that the 7 country ban has nothing to do with who is the baddest of the ME countries. It would be a diplomatic incident if USA banned immigration from countries where stoning occurred. The 7 countries are those who do not or cannot cooperate with USA-INS for information on their people applying to enter America. Mr Obama must hv drawn it up for a good reason.

IVY - I see where you got mixed up. My point was that far too many ME nations have appalling attitudes. This is nothing to do with an overbearing government, but is rather part & parcel of the honestly-held cultural beliefs. Some of the practices we consider barbaric, but executing a woman for alleged adultery, for example, is supported by the majority, honour killing is seen as a family cleansing itself of a humiliation.

You see ..... a completely different mindset.

I think you need to stop throwing insults as part of your agrument tactics

Ivy - If you look at yesterday's posts I think you should direct that statement to Narky, not to me. Or is this another case of selective reading?

Barack Obama never stopped processing visas. He introduced new, more stringent security checks after a real attack (not the Bowling Green Massacre). The visas were obviously far slower to process but they didn't stop - as here www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/01/29/trumps-facile-claim-that-his-refugee-policy-is-similar-to-obama-in-2011/?utm_term=.681f1df59933

south make up your mind why trump is making this ban is it to stop more fascists enter the country or due to the 7 countries not cooperating with the US, as you have stated clearly both.

Obama forced further vetting, making the process slower, there wasn't a ban. The reason was due to the countries not giving background to thier own nationals.

Tbh if trump took his business out of the ME and stopped trade due to the stonning of woman for crimes as an act of humanity then the world would look at this in a different light.

Southall

As mentioned many times on this post Saudi and the UAE have ACTUALLY had citizens commit crime against Americans, whereas the 7 countries in this ban have had NONE. The real reason these countries have been picked is because they don't have a voice on the international stage and can easily be confused with any muslim country because a lot of people think all Middle Eastern countries are exactly the same. To illustrate this the number one search term for 'Are Iranians _' on Google is 'Are Iranians Arabs'. The answer is no and they don't even speak Arabic. But the point is to the majority of Westerners these countries are all the same. These countries are being used as a scapegoat for terrorism, just as we went to Iraq because we thought they had nuclear weapons (or we didn't actually think they had nuclear weapons but said it anyway) and guess what, turns out they didn't. We won't actually address the real threat to terrorism such as countries like Saudi because there is too much money in these countries.

Also I want to address what you said here specifically:

This is nothing to do with an overbearing government, but is rather part & parcel of the honestly-held cultural beliefs. You see ..... a completely different mindset.

I think it is outrageous that you continue to portray the ordinary people as barbaric. Are you trying to win your argument by exhausting the opposition, and just repeating the same thing over and over until it becomes true?? Did you bother to educate yourself on the article I referenced previously??

www.huffingtonpost.com/jamsheed-k-choksy/entry-ban-dont-punish-irans-citizens-and-iranian-americans-punish-irans-government_b_14515844.html

Read this in particular:

"But it is unfair and unwise to equate an authoritarian state to its citizens. The vast majority of Iranians cannot be held accountable for the terrorist deeds of a few fundamentalist clerics, anti-western politicians, and fanatical fighters. The entry restrictions are playing in favor of Iran’s hardliners who portray it as evidence the U.S. remains hostile to all Iranians.

In Iran more than 60 percent of the population was born after the Islamic Revolution. Although 85 percent are literate, according to United Nations agencies, between 12 percent (official figure) and 30 percent (unofficial estimate) are unemployed. They push for liberty and opportunity. Many women wear the latest western fashions rather than the state-prescribed hijab despite harassment from state-paid morals squads. Others produce music, graffiti, and internet media denouncing the radicalism of ayatollahs. They attempt to vote progressive politicians into office. They circumvent their government’s control over information via the internet using smart phones. They travel to the U.S. to gain education and to benefit from our principles and norms."

Southall, what precisely was wrong with the stringent vetting procedures already in place in relation to citizens from those countries; and why are they deemed adequate for people from Saudi Arabia?

Mega - I repeat again. Those countries not on the list are the ones that cooperate with USA when confirmation background checks are required on people from their countries applying for entry to the US.

It still doesn't explain the current clamp down on them. They were already checked carefully, and there are no records of their citizens being an actual danger to the US.
Particularly as it affects refugees, who were already strictly vetted.
And it affected those already with green cards or visas.

Can you explain exactly what was needed in addition to the current visa process?

You can repeat it all you like but that isn't the reasoning Trump has given as justification, so you are just making up what you think are more sensible reasons for the ban. They aren't the actual reasons though, as you know.

Fly - I don't know about googling rates for Iran. I thought everyone knew that Iranians are not Arabs. They are Persian, majority are Shiite and therefore hated by the Sunnis, who are the ones killing for a caliphate. My brother is married to an Iranian.

And as regards travel to the West for education, only those who are very well-off and connected can do this.

And by the way, although I was born in England I am not part of your "majority of Westerners". I suggest you educate yourself in terms of the deeply-held - what we would consider regressive - views and beliefs of most people from Mena. Also revisit what happened in Cologne 2016 and continues to happen.

I thought everyone knew that Iranians are not Arabs.

Fly knows, but the vast majority of people won't.

Can you explain exactly what was needed in addition to the current visa process?

I don't know. But if USA or some other country was asking your country of origin for clarification and received no response, you would not be allowed in. As regards green card holders, I have no idea. My sister, who lives in the US, said that vetting procedures under Obama had over the years become lax because of high numbers seeking entry; some boxes could not be ticked.

My sister, who lives in the US, said that vetting procedures under Obama had over the years become lax because of high numbers seeking entry; some boxes could not be ticked

Does she work for Homeland Security?

Tbh if trump took his business out of the ME and stopped trade due to the stonning of woman for crimes as an act of humanity then the world would look at this in a different light

That's how life SHOULD be, Ivy, but it never will be. Sometimes we have to break bread with the bad guys in order to get our petrol. I would like to see Japan forced to stop whaling, I would like to see Taiwan, China, HK, Philippines told to stop killing for dog meat, SeaWorld to stop capturing whales and dolphins for entertainment, greyhound and horse racing stopped, those in danger of being honour killed in the UK to be better supported. There's a whole bunch of things to be done, but one nation cannot order another to stop cruel and backward practices.

No, she does not work for Homeland Security - that's the chatter on the streets.

The "chatter on the streets" may not be the most informed source - it was Obama's administration that tightened vetting procedures for visa applications from those countries.

No, she does not work for Homeland Security - that's the chatter on the streets.

So, most likely "alternative facts".

Perhaps you could come and comment when you have reliable facts.

Or ask Dr. Ozama.

They were already checked carefully

How do you know, Lweji? Are you listening to Dr Ozama.

that's the chatter on the streets

Oh you should have said that was your source, we would have totally believed everything!

Not.

From the reports by Homeland Security staff and people who've been through the process.