To think the trump Muslim ban is wrong BUT

[HannahSmithson45]

Many of the same countries ban entry for people from Israel or who have ever been to Israel.

Jackelope Apologies for sounding smug - I'm not really, just terrified that we are starting to see the beginning of the end of democracy.

However, my point is not altered by you being American. I would love to see the gun laws in the States changed, but this is not what the electorate have voted for, and for me, democracy is more important.

nb I may be wrong and the politics of gun control in America may be more complicated than this. If so please explain, if you are minded to.

I get what you're saying Debbie and I can only think there are lots of people out there like one of my DD's. She has marched countless times for very many injustices, and tonight was at Downing Street protesting against Trump's immigration ban. She would be most affronted at your comments . There are many good people out there doing the same as her.

"It's not a Muslim ban, it's a ban on 7 nationalities"
Do you really believe this? Just how many non Muslims do you think make up the population of the 7 countries? I've checked out 4 of the 7 so far and none of them have more than .5% non Muslims.

"whataboutery" is fine from people with other causes they actively support and would like people to protest about, but not as a tactic to try to stop people protesting.

Sorry for derailment again but this may be of interest following my earlier comments

www.israel21c.org/16-arabs-from-israel-making-a-difference-on-the-world-stage/

just food for thought as i haven't seen anyone else mention it (sorry if i missed it):

Farah said: “I am a British citizen who has lived in America for the past six years – working hard, contributing to society, paying my taxes and bringing up our four children in the place they now call home. Now, me and many others like me are being told that we may not be welcome. It’s deeply troubling that I will have to tell my children that Daddy might not be able to come home – to explain why the president has introduced a policy that comes from a place of ignorance and prejudice.

“I was welcomed into Britain from Somalia at eight years old and given the chance to succeed and realise my dreams. I have been proud to represent my country, win medals for the British people and receive the greatest honour of a knighthood. My story is an example of what can happen when you follow policies of compassion and understanding, not hate and isolation.”

He also contrasted his treatment from the Queen, who recently gave him a knighthood, with that of Trump, saying: “On 1 January this year, Her Majesty the Queen made me a knight of the realm. On 27 January, President Donald Trump seems to have made me an alien.”

Obviously Mo Farah is less likely to have problems getting back into the US... think about the poor schmuck who has spent his life savings on green cards and it's all been upended, and who doesn't have visibility like Mo.

also: 12 year old girl stuck in djibouti

Syrian Christians turned back

before you start on about the yemeni girl being left behind - in all likelihood, if the rest of the family did not go without her, they probably wouldn't have been able to go later. also note, 15 years to get the entire syrian christian family to the US.

reading commentary, i often think there's a misconception about how refugees and immigrants are vetted. my DS and BIL worked in the US for the max allowed visa length and then applied for green cards. They are both UK born citizens (one white, one non-white but not muslim or middle eastern) - it took i believe 2-3 years to get their green cards and that's for people who've lived and worked in the US long term and are applying from within the US.

the problem is the ban took effect on those already through the vetting process - it's not as if the government is going to refund those people their hundreds if not thousands of dollars in fees. I've also heard that not only are they revoking visas, but also placing an additional 5 year ban on some people.

bagel

Oh I totally agree, the Palestinian people are sorely let down by the bastards in charge of them. I despise Hamas with every fibre of my being. I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise, but I'm very surprised the OP came on saying "collective punishment is always wrong", giving Israelis being restricted as the example and querying why people don't protest in their behalf, without any idea (seemingly) about Israel's own fairly appalling approach to who it allows into its country. She seems to have a very blinkered understanding of the Middle East.

People need to stop arguing about the ban or not ban. It's distracting from the real issue.

Be concerned about the actions of a man in power at the WH and what he did on his first day. He didn't go through the houses like someone who wants to do things the right way. He circumvented the usual channels that might have prevented him from doing what he wanted. Some of us laughed at his election promises. He'll never get those through we thought. But he has, because it turns out that he knows he can forge ahead with no-one in his path and sign EO after EO.

This should worry people.

So people are absolutely right to stand up and challenge what he's done to date. Because today he's banning visas for nationals from predominantly Muslim countries, suspending the refugee program, repealing Obamacare and restructuring the NSC. Who's to say what he's going to do tomorrow?

He has to know that he doesn't have carte blanche to do whatever he wants and go unchallenged. And that the people will stand against him. He's a loose cannon with power and that should really really worry people.

Sonyaya 👍 got it and yes, I see what you mean.

Another question that I'm just musing about... If Trump can sign all these EOs, could Obama have done one re gun control? Not saying he should have, but could he have done and it would have been considered legal and binding?

No he couldn' Bagel, he was thwarted at every attempt ... by Republicans, by the NRA etc. And EO's aren't law.

What is so terrifying about this, to me, is that it is not a properly signalled, debated, and drafted policy over time. Rather, over night, legitimate documentation of many residents of the USA became invalid. That's the piece of paper, signed and stamped, that allowed them to build a life in a country in which they had permission to stay for ever, was suddenly useless - a broken promise.

Do you all understand, this isn't about new people trying to get in? (for however good reasons) This is about current legitimate USA residents, temporarily overseas for whatever reasons, being denied access to return to their homes - and despite holding legal papers that should have allowed them to do so.

What this means is: all bets are off. Anything could happen. Your right not walk free unless formally arrested, maybe. Perhaps the deeds to your house no longer mean anything, if you are the "wrong" sort of person. Maybe financial assets could come to be meaningless.

What does it mean if you have legal papers that assert your right to something, and a bunch of individuals decide overnight that they no longer count? What sort of a country does this?

Do we all see what is happening here?

Thanks Roussette Then how come Trumps EO re the ban has been enacted immediately? If it's not legal and binding? I'm confused

There are double standard definitely. Arabs hate Jews - that's ok apparently and to say otherwise is Islamophobia.

But a ban on Muslims (not saying it's fine , obvs) is not ok and people are taking to the streets.

I'm not Jewish but lots of my friends are and I find this double standards abhorrent.

Obama banned Iraqis for 6 months - same as what trump is doing now but there weren't protests then. Hmmmm

Yes, it's wrong. There are no buts, there are no excuses. It's wrong, plain and simple.

That 'hmmmm' implies that you've put any thought into that Creampastry.
Which you obviously haven't. There's a multitude of sources contrasting those two decisions.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/01/29/trumps-facile-claim-that-his-refugee-policy-is-similar-to-obama-in-2011/?client=safari

Or;
www.google.co.uk/amp/foreignpolicy.com/2017/01/30/sorry-mr-president-the-obama-administration-did-nothing-similar-to-your-immigration-ban/amp/?client=safari

The list of the seven countries was put in place by Obama. Not for banning but for thorough visas, following terrorism threats and there was a long time reviewing it by all the Homeland security teams, Justice Dept, Intelligence etc, it took a long time. Then he added special visas for those who had helped American forces etc. Also refugees weren't turned away. No one was banned. Now I think what Trump has done is use this list and somehow made it possible to issue this Order, with no consultation with any of his Departments, no advice from his intelligence officials or Security etc. Wham bam.

You are totally incorrect creampasty. No one was banned. They had to apply for a visa and this only applied to a small percentage of people.

Aid workers, those assisting troops, journalists etc were waived. Somewhat different to the 167 million that Trump has banned.

*LowComption
*
These in pic

When we entered Israel we were given a seperate piece of paper which was stamped so that the stamp would not be in our passports.

Trumps ban is racist populist bullshit. However America voted for this, it's what they want.

"However America voted for this"

'mmmmmmm, I don't want to get into the "popular vote vs. Electoral College" but you know, that's not very true.

Israel has also condemned the travel ban, citing Jewish refugees. They don't want middle eastern refugees experiencing the same. Also Israelis are not banned in the 'same way' as the US banned muslims- the Arab League has sanctioned Israel due to it's actions in Palestine. It's as valid a reason as Europe/UK/USA sanctioning North Korea or Cuba or Iran.

OP - YANBU. It's rank hypocrisy from those currently losing their heads about the ban. Five of the six countries who've been banned from the US ban Israelis or even those with an Israeli stamp in their passport from visiting. Where's the outcry about that?